The Middle East: What would you do?

Posted by Chris Morris on 17th September 2009

Nobody makes new friends by writing about the Middle East. Whatever you say, somebody is going to get pissed off. So the temptation is to say nothing.

But after reading the UN (Goldstone) report about Gaza, I don’t want to say nothing.

I love the ideals of the UN. I have visited and helped at their headquarters in New York, and standing inside the UN Security Council Chamber – the focus of so much international attention for longer than I’ve been alive – was a magical experience for me. I also think most of the people who work and volunteer for the UN are enthusiastic, idealist and great people.

But I think the UN is weak, biased, antisemitic and discredited when it comes to the Middle East.

Did you know that the Jewish state is smaller than Wales and has a population less than Greater London? Did you know that it’s surrounded by Arab neighbours with many hundred times more landmass and around 50 times more people? And did you know that several of those powerful Arab neighbours declared war on Israel on the very first morning of its existence, simply because they didn’t – and mostly still don’t – think a Jewish state should be allowed to exist?

The great myth is that the Middle East conflict is about land. Of course it’s really about ideology and power.

The land of Israel has been a Jewish area since biblical times (and I mean the old testament bible; thousands of years BC). It was sparsely populated for much of the last few hundred years, until the first mass immigration into the area between 1880 and 1920. Those immigrants were Jews escaping the Russian and East European pogroms, and that land was their oasis of hope. In return they breathed life into a mostly parched landscape. They built the area from mostly dusty desert into a country with an infrastructure. They built the economy from virtually nothing to something that became stronger and stronger.

More Jews moved there over the next two decades, many escaping the rise of Nazism in the 30s. They built the infrastructure and the economy. They rebuilt Jerusalem. They reinvested in their communities to make them strong, all the time asking for self-determination and self-government.

Modern Israel was officially created as a country – by the UN, ironically – in 1948. It was a place that refugees from the Holocaust could go to start a new life. People are often accused of being emotive when mentioning the Holocaust, but why not be emotive? It’s relevant that many of the founders of modern Israel were people who had been horribly treated, not only by Germany and the Nazis but also by the many countries that refused them asylum after the war. It’s sick and disgraceful that people who had lost their families and their homes, and all their material possessions, were left to die and rot in boats hanging off the coast of countries – including Britain – that wouldn’t let them in.

Israel was their sanctuary. Jews agreed to the terms of the UN resolution that gave them a home – and then, immediately, they were invaded and attacked by Iraq, Syria and others.

It’s against this backdrop that Israel has reactively and proactively defended itself against aggressors for 61 years.

By extending its boundaries outwards, enemy rockets were pushed back and could no longer reach densely-populated cities. That seems like a sensible idea to me. It’s an imperfect solution of course, but it’s saved far more lives than it’s cost. What would you do if someone who wanted you dead had rockets aimed at your house? Pushing the rockets back to a distance where they are much less of a threat is probably the most peaceful option available in that situation.

Similar with “the wall”. Of course it’s inconvenient and humiliating for people (both Jews and Arabs) to be stopped at checkpoints, and it has dramatically reduced suicide bombings and saved countless lives. It’s not perfect, but what is? What would you do if people were blowing themselves up in your neighbourhood?

I’m not into the religious case for Israel. Each of us has our own god or gods, and few of them seem to agree on very much. It’s not relevant to me that many Jews see Israel as their spiritual home or promised land. What matters is the truth of history – what matters is that these people overcame horrendous obstacles to build something beautiful, and nobody’s fear and hatred should deprive them of another home.

Iranian leader Mahmoud Ahmadinejad threatens a second Holocaust not because he wants a few extra square miles of land but because he doesn’t want Jews having a home in that 95%-Islamic region.

People like to say “oh it’s all very complicated”. People like to say “oh there are two sides to every story”. Those are just lazy ways of not having to think.

What’s your side of the story?

These are not complicated issues once you realise that three foxes and a chicken voting on what to have for dinner isn’t democracy. The UN report betrays the trust that some people still have in the UN because Goldstone has deliberately and cynically misrepresented events to pacify a violent majority.

There’s another factor too. I think it’s so far outside our realm of understanding that most of us simply can’t believe that mothers could use their own babies as human shields. Even when I see video footage of Hamas firing rockets from the roof of a school – knowing that any retaliation will kill the children playing inside and therefore cast Israel as the bigger and nastier aggressor – somehow it still seems unreal to me. It just cannot be. It cannot be. But it is. It is.

The kids that survive this abuse are the future and may one day hold our future in their hands. What hope do they have? The UN-run schools in Gaza recently asked Hamas if it would be ok to teach the standard curriculum, including some history lessons about World War 2 and the Nazi Holocaust. Of course Hamas aggressively refused that permission.

Where else in the world does the UN ask terrorists what it’s ok to teach in history class?

See the video below for a provocative glimpse at how some children grow up in UN-funded facilities in Gaza.

Israel is certainly not perfect. Nobody and no country is. But I’ll tell you something – they’re far more restrained than I’d ever be in their shoes. If you hit someone I care about, I’m not interested in calculating what is a proportional response. I’d punch you back as hard as I could, and when you stood up I’d punch you again even harder. And I know that’s not an ideal way to be – and we could all be Zen masters – but if your parents were killed in a Nazi death camp and your kids were killed by a suicide bomber, what counts as a proportional response? When you’ve lost everything, rebuilt it again from nothing and then have hate-filled people trying to take it all away again, what the hell is a proportionate response?

What would you do? It’s not nice to consider, but it’s the only way to make it real. And that’s the only way to collectively find a solution.

I recommend reading this chapter (available free) from Not In My Name.

All kids deserve better than this:



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82 responses:

Michael Neill

17th September 2009 (3:59 pm)

Brilliantly put, Chris – and not sure if this is your line originally (“These are not complicated issues once you realise that three foxes and a chicken voting on what to have for dinner isn’t democracy.”) but if it is, please know that IMHO it’s the kind of a line that can change the world!

Well done and thank you.


Julie

17th September 2009 (4:08 pm)

You’re a beautiful man.


Damian Jurzysta

17th September 2009 (4:11 pm)

Great analysis Chris. I’m curious on your take on all this if you’d look at it from the Arab side, taking into account multiple perceptual positions and what possibly the positive intention could be behind their actions.

Also, your blogentry offers plenty of insight and thoughts but doesn’t answer your original question, “What would you do?”.


Chris Morris

17th September 2009 (4:42 pm)

Thanks Michael and Julie! :)

@ Damian – What would I do? I’d probably write about all this in a way that gets a group of people thinking in a certain flow, because together I think we’ll find solutions faster than any one alone. Lasting changes happen best when we become catalysts to inspire and provoke and demand change from each other.

When I was in the West Bank two years ago, I did some deep trance identification with a couple of guys there. My sense was certainly that they are good, sincere people there. Very few people in the world ever intend to do bad and even fewer intend to be bad. However, I think a lot of people in the world are misled and misdirected by powerful and sometimes self-interested leaders. The financial dimension to this is the easiest to demonstrate because it’s been shown over and over that there is no reason for people in that region to starve or be homeless. The aid that goes there is immense. Yet much of what isn’t spent on weapons and terrorist training is hoarded in the bank accounts of criminal terrorist leaders. Because it is useful to them to keep people poor and hungry.

Why would any leader do that to their people? I don’t know of course, but it reminds me a bit of when I had tea with Baroness Young. I was campaigning for a change in the law to bring equality for gay people and she was opposing the reform. Baroness Young was a very nice person. She was very kind to me. But she fundamentally thought that if I got my way the world would go to hell in a handcart. Here’s the crucial bit: she knew her logical arguments were flawed – she sidestepped and danced around the issues beautifully. When I outfoxed her, she smiled and offered me more tea. We drank a lot of tea. But I still believe that she was being sincere because she believed so strongly that, as a good Christian, she was on a righteous path. Put simply: she knew she was right, no matter what.

The shame of this is what occurs by presupposition when you focus too close on what you “know” to be true. Where is the UN on Tibet, Darfur and the rest of the world? This guy from UN Watch put it better than I can: Banned UN Speech: Human Rights Nightmare. It’s a compelling video; I recommend watching it.


chris e

17th September 2009 (4:51 pm)

This is one sited article.It is very bias.There two sides to a coin. I’m sympathetic to Israel yet ,there is an other story to be told for the crimes Israel has committed since was established in this land, by the allies shortly after the end of the II WW .
I think it is only fair for you or some one to write the whole story.
The real truth of the matter is that if there was not for the ENORMOUS annual US aid, Israel won’t exist.The future of the US looks very gleam and in all probabilities the US foreign policy is already changing.If I was an Israeli I will seriously be rethinking my attitude and practices. Israel has the experience,knowledge,and technology to do much better .I know it is difficult to deal with it’s neighbors, but if there is one edit y that can successfully do it and have a peaceful co existence that’s not the UN or the US it is Israel it self.


Shaun Conway

17th September 2009 (5:18 pm)

Excellent article Chris, well written and bold. I agree with this passage in particular:

People like to say “oh it’s all very complicated”. People like to say “oh there are two sides to every story”. Those are just lazy ways of not having to think.


Shaun Conway

17th September 2009 (5:24 pm)

to chris e ——> speaking of one sided, note the figures [2008]
* US aid to Israel (population 7.5 million) – aprox $2.4 billion
* US aid to Gaza (population 0.4 million) – aprox $1.1 billion


chris e

17th September 2009 (5:47 pm)

To Shaun Conway
Try you that again you are wrong.
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/usaid.html
I do not see ANY reason for any one to exist as a nation if some one else has to pay for that existence. Further there genocides going on through out the 20th century to to day in Africa ,and no one gives a rat’s ass about it.Is this because the US has NO interst in Africa (yet)? Lets get real here the fact of the matter (as sad as it is) the country of Israel exists at the pleasure of the US.
My previous statement that if I was an Israeli I will be rethinking my strategy holds truth.Things are CHANGING and in the end the US will drop the aid.I know sound impossible now to believe it but so did the end of communism some sort decades earlier.


Chris Morris

17th September 2009 (6:11 pm)

That site confirms what Shaun said: $7m per day is aprox $2.4b per year. And the US gives several billion dollars to Africa every year too, and has done for a long time.


Alan L

17th September 2009 (6:20 pm)

You’re right, it’s an incendiary topic.

Sometimes it’s very difficult to talk about it because there are so many (on both sides) who insist that if you don’t support side A, then you must support side B (or vice versa). Self-evidently, though, partisanship is not an obligation.

Additionally there are those who simplistically insist that if you don’t support an administration then you oppose the people in whose name it acts. It should be perfectly obvious that the actions of any modern state or regional administration can be somewhat and occasionally thoroughly unrepresentative of its electorate.

Sadly, there is little airtime given to those who don’t support and are not interested in the emotionally compelling idea of ‘sides’.

Imprisonment, mutilation, arson, bombing, maiming and murder are crimes. The ethnicity or creed of the perpetrator is an irrelevancy. No, really. It’s totally irrelevant.

Criminals should be made to answer for their crimes. Shouting: “He hit me first, sir!” or perhaps even “But he was about to hit me!” are not excuses which should be allowed to wash.

There is no excuse for the continued imprisonment of Gilad Shalit, the bulldozing of houses, Hamas rockets fired into civilian territory, shooting of civilians, bombs in discotheques, walls of dubious legality and so on and so on. All that matters at the end of the day is how many people would have been alive today or walking unaided who have now been permanently maimed or murdered as a consequence of criminal behaviour. And how many would be enjoying better lives if they were not constantly living in fear.

Personally, I see as much justification for a Jewish National State as for a Finnish National State or a Slovak National State etc. If we are to accept that nations exist at some level and that, under certain conditions, those nations may be granted their own national states (or polities), then it seems only reasonable that all peoples we uncontroversially accept as nations which can demonstrate a majority plebiscite in favour of territorial self-determination might be granted a national polity, providing they can answer and conform to certain universal criteria in the establishment and running of their polity.

Subject to the post-WWII ‘freezing’ of state borders, it is probably too late to re-recognise the Jewish people as a European nation and create an Israel somewhere in the European region traditionally inhabited by Ashkenazic Jews, which is rather a shame, I feel. European leaders at that time – Stalin most of all – happily washed their hands of the European ‘Jewish Question’ by exporting it to the Middle East.

So, the Levant it is then. Any peaceful solution brought about by peaceful means is good, but I am not absolutely convinced that a two state solution can work, especially given the nature of the administrative borders. So… how can we guarantee national self-determination (ie. a national state or polity) for the Jewish nation AND for the Palestinian nation? Perhaps a federal single-state solution with two identities (the Israel – the Jewish National State / Palestine – the Palestinian National State) and different ethnic mixes in each federal constituency and a semi- independent Jerusalem with a degree of self-rule, largely outside the framework holding together the other federal constituencies might be a more progressive solution.

There will, of course, always be those who argue that the Palestinians are not a nation, they are simply Jordanians and cannot be considered a people at the same ontological level as the Israeli Jews. Unfortunately this gets to the intractable root of the question “What is a nation?” (or even “When is a nation?” – see Walker Connor) and this is not a question which is likely to be answered any time soon. (See: Bulgarians / Macedonians & Romanians / Moldovans & Russians / Ukrainians etc.)


chris e

17th September 2009 (7:44 pm)

Even so the fact of the matter is that with out the US aid there will be no issue because none of them will exist.


Jamie Dixon

17th September 2009 (8:31 pm)

Great article Chris. I don’t know enough about the situation in Israel to offer an educated comment but you’ve spurred me on to learn more about it.

I think it’s admirable to have put yourself out there in this way knowing that some people will disagree and I reckon you’re happy for them to do that, because ultimately it gets people thinking… and hopefully thinking for themselves.


Matt Wingett

17th September 2009 (8:46 pm)

Very good manipulation of emotions through rhetoric, Chris. I nearly fell for all that clap-trap. But I think you really make a mistake in your argument when you so eloquently justify unrestrained violence, rather than a proportionate response against aggressors.

Also, I have no idea why, if you think the religion and “spiritual home” argument is irrelevant, that you cite it in the first place. It is, after all, one of the major justifications that the settlers use to justify their illegal occupation of Palestinian land. I suspect that what you have done (consciously, or otherwise) is constructed a series of appeals to the emotions to support your argument.

Yeah. Great idea.

That’s what got that place in such a mess in the first place. A bunch of hotheads planting bombs and killing people. I mean, of course the terrorists who lay bombs to kill British troops while they were at rest. Bodies flown home in little burned bits, to a Britain that had just fought a war against their Nazi oppressors. Now, what were those terrorists called? The Irgun, that’s right. Pretty effective terrorists, they were. The following year they massacred 107 unarmed Arab civilians, including women and children in the previously quiet little semi-rural village of Deir Yassin.

Hmmm, makes you think: no wonder the Arabs are scared of the Jews, doesn’t it, if that’s what they’re willing to do..?

But now I’ll stop. You see, Chris, making appeals to the emotions on this one is a bad move. There must be an answer to this one somewhere – but it isn’t in your blog.

No, that’s for sure.

It’s one for cooler heads than the likes of you and me. People who, hopefully, don’t just stir up the ill-feeling, dig in on the anger and entrench even more. Yup, one for a wiser head than I have on my shoulders. And you have on yours.

Peace.

Matt.


Henry Money

17th September 2009 (9:16 pm)

Very thought provoking – thanks Chris.


Jonathan

17th September 2009 (11:28 pm)

Well said, Chris. Thanks for this.


Caroline Gardner

18th September 2009 (3:51 am)

That video made me cry, but I’d rather cry than be blinkered.
Thanks for opening my eyes to a few things even if you wet them in the process.


Nick

18th September 2009 (7:12 am)

(”These are not complicated issues once you realise that three foxes and a chicken voting on what to have for dinner isn’t democracy.”)
This is the heart of the issue, both the foxes and the chickens believe they have right on their side and are unlikely to agree quickly. What would I do?

I would search for a way to stop them interacting physically whilst they cool down. It could take a while.
The foxes would have to be stopped from attacking the chickens and the chickens would have to be stopped from taking land and resources outside the farmyard. The problem is finding an animal that is able and willing to police the boarder. Something large and vegetarian, I think the elephants could do the job.
I guess a UN peacekeeping force are the elephants in the real world, not ideal perhaps but the best we have.
Any other suggestions for the role of the elephants?


elixelx

18th September 2009 (8:24 am)

“…bodies flown home in little burned bits…” WOW, Matt, WOW!

Yep, that’s one more reason to hate Jews–because OUR terrorists are far more effective than YOUR terrorists–and while the Irish terrorists took 2oo years to NOT get what they wanted, it took the Jews 2 years to get a state which is a monument to the spirit of the Jews and Humanity everywhere, for all time!

How it must burn, Matt! Oh! Yes! Jews do Violence, alright!


Ayelet

18th September 2009 (8:49 am)

“three foxes and a chicken voting on what to have for dinner isn’t democracy…. Goldstone has deliberately and cynically misrepresented events to pacify a violent majority.”

Perfect. Thank you.


Shmuel

18th September 2009 (8:57 am)

This is very well said Chris.

Alan L, you misunderstand a few fundamentals.

Your idea that the ‘European Jewish Question’ was ‘exported to the Middle East’ completely overlooks the make-up of the Israeli population, which includes millions of Jewish people from Middle Eastern countries and from Africa. Your emphasis, in trying to construct your case, on Ashkenazim overlooks the Sephardim and Mizrahim. You also ignore the origins of the Jews who are not a ‘European nation’ but a Middle Eastern people, going back millennia.

You talk of ‘how many people would have been alive today or walking unaided who have now been permanently maimed or murdered’, yet you criticise ‘the wall’ which has dramatically reduced the number of suicide bombings in Israel. http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Palestinian+terror+since+2000/Suicide+and+Other+Bombing+Attacks+in+Israel+Since.htm What is your alternative to ‘the wall’ if you don’t want that? Israel has to face reality and take tough decisions, it cannot hide behind strange concepts of a Jewish state in Europe of all places, or a dream about ‘a single federal state’, (which blissfully ignores the endlessly-declared aims of the Palestinians to destroy the Jewish state and its people).

Is military action always a “crime”? Would you describe the Allies who fought Hitler as “criminals should be made to answer for their crimes”? Of course not, it is sometimes justified and necessary. Rarely more so in history than in the case of Israel (and rarely has it ever been conducted more humanely).

Matt, your selective citation of the Irgun and misinformed account of Deir Yassin, and your effective excusal of decades of Arab terrorism, confirms indeed that wiser heads than yours are needed.

Again, well said Chris.


Shmuel

18th September 2009 (9:10 am)

Nick, you think the UN is the “elephant”?

It’s hard to know how to respond if you think that. I suggest you watch the video that Chris posted higher up, not the baby one but the UN Watch one, explaining why the UN is properly untrusted by the “chickens”.


Doogie

18th September 2009 (9:34 am)

As I said on Facebook…

I wouldn’t describe the creation of Israel with no mention of Jewish terrorism or unilateral declaration of statehood, just as I wouldn’t omit Arab terrorism or the AHC’s opposition to the two-state solution. And I wouldn’t describe the region as “sparsely populated” as a vague justification for occupation when almost a million Arabs were displaced from where their families lived for centuries.

But most of all, I wouldn’t stoop to calling the UN anti-semitic merely because it does not conform to my view of how Israel should be treated. It is as much anti-semitic to be critical of Israeli defence policy as it is racist to be critical of Obama’s health reforms.


Garth

18th September 2009 (9:37 am)

Well done, Chris, thanks!
The Arabs don’t even care about or help their own people, including the “Palestinians”: “The 21 Arab states that could easily have absorbed the original 650,000 Palestinian refugees in 1948, but refused to do so, even though their combined land mass was 700 times greater than that possessed by Israel. In contrast, the Jewish population of the new state was only 600,000, yet Israel willingly absorbed some 820,000 Jewish refugees from Europe.” quotation by Randall Price. Not sure if the figures are correct. Also, not even mentioned are the almost one million Jewish refugees from Arab countries who in 1948 were kicked out of their homes by the Arabs having been robbed of everything and who were welcomed to come home to Israel. The Arabs and their cronies are only perpetuating and using the “Palestinian” issue to to demonize, deligitimize and attempt to destroy Israel. Another example: my Israeli cousin had previously established a high quality textiles factory for the Arabs in Gaza. The PLO (this was before Hamas) threatened and attacked the Arab workers and management until the factory was forced to close. The PLO didn’t want any economic progress that might benefit their own people. They want the ‘Palestinians” to remain an economic basket case for anti-Israel propaganda purposes. Their only aim is to destroy Israel.


Chris Morris

18th September 2009 (9:50 am)

@ Doogie, thanks. For balance it’s maybe worth also mentioning that Arab countries like Iraq, Egypt and Libya violently expelled around 800,000 Jews between 1948-1950, in “retaliation” for the UN’s creation of Israel. I haven’t seen any compelling evidence to suggest that Israel expelled Arabs in the same way, but I agree some Arabs were displaced and many others felt they had no choice but to leave. It must have been very scary and traumatic for both sides.

There are still more than a million Israeli Arabs living in Israel, and they choose to live and be part of the society there. They don’t have equal rights with Jews, but they have more rights than they would have in any of the surrounding Arab countries. There are Arab members of the Knesset (the democratic Parliamment). I think even more could be done.

One key point stands out for me. Israel – a poor country at that time – offered a home to ALL the Jewish refugees from neighbouring Arab countries, as well as ALL Jewish refugees from the Holocaust. To coin a phrase, they took a sad song and made it better. They literally rebuilt Jerusalem. By contrast, rich Arab countries refused to give a home to the Arab refugees from Israel, leaving them instead to become photogenic victims for their cause. It disgusts me, frankly. The Arab countries with a combined GDP of hundreds of billions of dollars can easily afford to do more to help Arab people, but it suits them not to. This is the hard part for most of us to understand, but the evidence is clear.


Ruth

18th September 2009 (9:50 am)

The only gripe that I would have with this article is that there is no mention of the Jewish refugee situation created by the forced departure of the Mizrahim. Of course, Israel was able to absorb the refugees but their plight is often overlooked and/or ignored. Also, people seem to conveniently forget that there has always been a Jewish presence on the land, my husband’s family included. It may have been a lot smaller than at any other point in history, but you can’t deny their presence.
Overall, a very good article, I admire your courage! But, alas, I have no solution to the problems we face. I was brought up in Northern Ireland and despite the ‘peace’ we have, the war on the streets is still very much in effect. Perhaps it’s just in our nature to destroy ourselves…

Shabbat Shalom & Shana Tova!!!


Brenda P

18th September 2009 (10:18 am)

Well written and brave of you Chris, thanks! :-)


UN Volunteer

18th September 2009 (10:28 am)

You are Manipulative Zionist UN Basher. I bet any money you never have been to UN never been to Security Chamber and just sucking people in with LIES.


Chris Morris

18th September 2009 (10:41 am)

Any money? How about £50?

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=1434897&id=720452384
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=1434890&id=720452384

You can make your cheque payable to the Zionist Federation! :)


Noa

18th September 2009 (11:09 am)

I feel this very true posting in my heart. Nowhere more so than in your dissection of the decline of the United Nations from an admirable dream into a morally-bankrupt shambles whose mammothly disproportionate condemnation of Israel gives a free pass by the back door to genuine human rights abusers and tyrants around the world including every continent. This is what your UN Watch video illustrated so well and IMHO it is the reason the whole world should take note because Israel is being used as a shiny shiny to distract while the UN ignores genuine human rights abuses in other places. Why is Israel the one used? The easy answer is anti semitism, and yes that is often the case. Also we are disproportionately powerful for our size and will only become a stronger force. Well you know we don’t want Jews taking over the world do we?! There is also another element to it which is the lazy moral equivalence that doesn’t see differences in terror on one side and self-defence of others because it takes some time to learn but most people don’t care enough. Any normal person would understand well the reason for the so-called wall and pushing back rockets if it was them in the firing line or had any heart for empathy? Dying is our alternative. We would rather live and be condemned than die by rockets and suicide bombers. In the Nazi time we died in millions and this time we don’t want to die, sorry. How many rockets fired at Israel from before Operation Cast Lead response? It was 12,000. All of us here know someone who died so maybe our perspective is different to those who talk in theory. Of course we hit back and maybe too hard I don’t know, but as you say what is the alternative proposed by the haters? I never hear proposals just wishes. So many people are ignorant, it is a shame.

Yasher Koach.


Doogie

18th September 2009 (11:27 am)

Thanks Chris, and I hope you get your money! :-)

I have to say I remain in disagreement with you about the “anti semitism” of the UN, and I don’t think it helps anyone to dismiss the serious findings of Goldstone as being the result of prejudice. The shelling of mosques during prayers was found to be a deliberate policy of the IDF. If Israel doesn’t want to be treated equally with terrorists it needs to stop behaving the same as terrorists.


Ariadne

18th September 2009 (12:12 pm)

Doogie, mosques cease to be off-limits when terrorists stock them with munitions and fire those munitions from them.


Rabbi Sam

18th September 2009 (12:46 pm)

I nod to your knowledge and bow to your power.


Rabbi Sam

18th September 2009 (12:50 pm)

My friend Doogie, you confuse behavior and intention. Two men can walk a path and if one intends to kill a person and the other to save a person, these are in fact different paths.


Un-happy Israeli

18th September 2009 (1:14 pm)

To you who criticize Israel:

Please imagine in the situation where we are in. Please I beg it of you, if a rocket is aimed at your house now at this time and tell me what does it feel like to live with such fear by an enemy hating you for your creed? A suicide bomber can kill you with no warning, or worse your child may never come home from kindergarten. All in Israel knows a family of children without parents and parents without children. We take our turn in IDF then you criticize us for firing back when the evil hamas fire the rockets from in schools, hospitals, and mosques. They do it that way so people that are like you are thinking bad thoughts of us but I hate it that you are so bad informed you think you’re better than us.


Doogie

18th September 2009 (1:28 pm)

@Ariadne, and when you react by killing innocents at prayer, no matter the provocation, you become no more than terrorists yourselves. We as civilised people should not condone any government which does that.

@ Rabbi Sam, the UN report says that it was the IDF’s intent to kill those people in exactly the way they did, and lists other instances of clear intent. To quote a banner from one of the Stop the War marches I was on in Edinburgh a few years back, and if you’ll excuse the language: “Bombing for Peace is like Fucking for Virginity”.


Avi from Jerusalem

18th September 2009 (1:33 pm)

Thank you Chris, this is very good to read.

My parents live in Sderot, for those who don’t know it’s an area that experienced daily rocket bombardment from Hamas. My parents watched the local children from Sderot pass on the route to school and we all knew they could not be protected from the rockets that always came every day. Hamas target was children. The people who condemn Operation Cast Lead, our response after 12,000 rockets were fired at us, tell me something please. Where were you when our children were being fired on? Where was the UN then?

I thank G-d that some in England stand up for what is right.

THERE WAS NO WAR MORE JUSTIFIED IN HISTORY THAN THE GAZA WAR. IF YOU WERE HERE, YOU WOULD KNOW.


Shmuel

18th September 2009 (1:41 pm)

Nice to be in Edinburgh where such things are theoretical and you can march without fear.

I live in London where many did similar.

The naivety is staggering.


Alan L

18th September 2009 (1:53 pm)

Shmuel, many thanks for an articulate response to some of my points. It is refreshing when discussing an issue such as this to be able to engage in a discussion with someone unconstrained by emotionally-laden invective.

First, if I may, a brief aside to Noa: please understand Noa, that nations are built on symbols and myths – myths of heroes, myths of Golden Ages, myths of suffering and victimhood, myths of manifest destiny etc. The one you cite – national martyrdom – is particularly effectively deployed to bolster Israeli Jewish national identity given that there is a vast, oft-discussed millenia-long recorded history of unjust Jewish suffering (Babylonian capitivity, slavery in Egypt, Roman colonisation, Mediaeval pogroms in Europe, European anti-semitic movements in the 19th century, wholesale slaughter of Jews by the Soviet Union and the Third Reich etc.). However, since 1948, the Palestinians (then, a very young nation) have been deploying the same myth to build their own nation and so today all that Israeli anti-civilian military response to criminal Palestinian bomb and rocket attacks will achieve (regardless of their justification in terms of ‘no more victimhood’) is to reinforce the Palestinian nation myth of martyrdom and make the Palestinian national mythos stronger. Regrettably, that will empower the Palestinian belligerents. Military action against civilians lengthens rather than shortens the road to peace. (Of course, not everyone actually wants peace, but it would be nice to think that we all did).

Furthermore, you write about “the lazy moral equivalence that doesn’t see differences in terror on one side and self-defence of others.” Perhaps a civilian murder is just a civilian murder, whoever commits the crime and no matter what has gone before?

Back to Shmuel:

> Alan L, you misunderstand a few fundamentals.

Thank you. I am here to explore ideas and learn, not to go to any lengths to prove that I am right.

> Your idea that the ‘European Jewish Question’ was ‘exported
> to the Middle East’ completely overlooks the make-up of the
> Israeli population, which includes millions of Jewish people
> from Middle Eastern countries and from Africa. Your
> emphasis, in trying to construct your case, on Ashkenazim
> overlooks the Sephardim and Mizrahim.

You are right on both counts. But are you saying that the modern State of Israel would have come into existence anyway, even if the Ashkenazim had been happily integrated into the Prussian, Austrian and Romanov Empires?

> You also ignore the origins of the Jews who are not
> a ‘European nation’ but a Middle Eastern people, going back
> millennia.

Technically, yes. But then lots of English people are apparently from the south of Denmark (or the north of Spain, depending on who you read), the Hungarians are from Central Asia, the Germans are from the Black Sea Region and ultimately we’re all from the Rift Valley. However we do generally accept that the English are from the British Isles and the Germans and Hungarians are from Germany and Hungary. So I think it’s fair to maintain that the pre-1948 Mediterranean Sephardim and (especially) the Mitteleuropa Ashkenazim are Europeans, from Europe.

> You talk of ‘how many people would have been alive today or
> walking unaided who have now been permanently maimed or
> murdered’, yet you criticise ‘the wall’ which has dramatically
> reduced the number of suicide bombings in Israel.

I accept that physical frontiers (the demilitarised zone in Korea, the Green Line in Cyprus, the Peace Lines in Belfast) are unfortunate, but sometimes necessary practical measures in order to minimise violence between two combative parties. My concern is less with the wall itself and more with the fact that it was not built along the legally designated demarcation line – a decision which looked like a crude land-grab. Also, unless I am mistaken, it was a unilateral, rather than a bilateral project. Is this correct?

> it cannot hide behind [...] a dream about ‘a single federal
> state’, (which blissfully ignores the endlessly-declared aims of
> the Palestinians to destroy the Jewish state and its people).

And what of all the many Palestinians who harbour no such wishes? And of all the many Israeli Jews who value peace more than their taxes subsidising civilian murder?

> Is military action always a “crime”?

Against other voluntary combatants, no. Against non-voluntary draftees and civilians, yes. Always. I think so at any rate. Others will differ (though perhaps less so when their relatives are directly involved).

> Would you describe the Allies who fought Hitler as “criminals
> should be made to answer for their crimes”? Of course not, it is
> sometimes justified and necessary.

Huh?!! I hope you don’t believe this, Shmuel. First of all, it is not the case that Churchill, Roosevelt & Stalin fought Hitler, Mussolini and Tojo. Closer to the truth is that certain people who had been brought up and educated to subscribe to the idea that they were of British ethno-nationality were ordered to and did fight and kill others who similarly subscribed to the idea that they were of German ethno-nationality. This is pretty insane by any measure. Secondly, when it comes to combat-willing fighters murdering combat-unwilling civilians such as in the Dresden firestorm, the atom bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki… in what terms might these not be considered crimes on a vast scale? Do you genuinely think it is acceptable for anyone but a paid, professional volunteer soldier to be involved in any armed conflict whatsoever?

There is no humane or justified killing of non-combatants by combatants. It is only in the interest of warmongers to persuade their respective electorates that there is. That is, after all, how they acquire and maintain power.


Adam M

18th September 2009 (2:09 pm)

On the issue of Goldstone, please pay attention to what he was ordered to do by UN Resolution S-9/1. His job was unequivocally “to investigate all violations of international human rights law and international humanitarian law by the occupying Power, Israel, against the Palestinian people throughout the Occupied Palestinian Territory, particularly in the occupied Gaza Strip, due to the current aggression.”.

If you understand international law as Goldstone clearly does as a professor of the subject then you can see he was legally bound to be biased in his report even before he started his investigation!!!


Damian S

18th September 2009 (2:48 pm)

Couldn’t have put it better myself, Chris, which is why you’ve written this amazing blog post…and I haven’t!! Constructive, clear and well considered comments such as yours are vital amidst the polluted trash coming out of most media outlets, which is ultimately a feeble cover for anti-semitism and anti-Zionism!


Doogie

18th September 2009 (2:59 pm)

@Avi – I have great sympathy for your parents and for all of the victims of the bombings. But Sderat is not in Israel, is it? At least not the Israel of the UN mandate. It was built on the site of Najd, in Gaza, after that village was destroyed and occupied by Israeli forces during the Arab-Israel war in 1948. How did your parents end up living in an illegally occupied part of Gaza? When people decry the use of human shields, do they not also decry the Israeli use of illegal settlements, which amount to precisely the same thing?

It is wrong that the innocent people in Sderot should come under rocket attack from Hamas; but it was wrong that it should have been seized in the first place too.

@Shmuel – if you believe only people who live in Israel are entitle to an opinion about it then why do you not condemn this whole article? Or is it only if people don’t live there *and* happen to disagree with you?

@Adam M – I can’t see any bias there, I can only see focus. The resolution was focused on Israel as the occupying power. It’s certainly no surprise that Goldstone didn’t report on Palestinian atrocities, since he had no mandate to do so as you say. But that doesn’t constitute bias.


Steve McN

18th September 2009 (5:05 pm)

I’m not Jewish or Israeli but I am a psychologist and this interests me. When it comes to people like Doogie, Alan, Matt and the like, I wonder how many times someone would have to knock them over before they stood up for themselves? Once? Ten times? Ten thousand times? Or would they just let themselves be abused?????

It’s easy to say others shouldn’t hit back but that’s not real is it? How about making the theoretical practical, which I thought was the strength of this whole article. You guys need to associate with the idea that it isn’t abstract for the people over there. The guy who said it’s easy to march in Edinburgh/London is totally right.


Lynne T

18th September 2009 (5:36 pm)

Doogie:

If you don’t know where Sderot is, then you really aren’t nearly as up on the facts as you hold yourself out to be. Not only is Sderot within the ’48 Armistice borders, it is also primarily populated with Jews who were forced to flee Morocco — their home for centuries or longer — where they were compelled to live under the dhimmi laws — a system of head taxes and other forms of discrimination.

As for the Occupied Territories, Israel offered their return shortly after the war in which they were won, in exchange for recognizing Israel’s right to exist, but the idiot countries of the Arab League issued their famous “three nos” declaration from Khartoum. Instead, they pursued war through terror campaigns, targeting Jews living in places as far distant as Argentina and attempted to destabilize neighbouring Lebanon and Jordan. In the 1990s, they were offered the return of virually all of the occupied territories, and Arafat’s response was to pump up the hostility via Palestinian media, mosques and schools and making public shows out of paying blood money to the surviving kith and kin of suicide terrorists. If the Palestinians and Arab citizens were truly as aggrieved as you believe, this incitement and bribery would not be necessary. In fact, a recent Pew poll found that 60%+ of Israel’s Arab citzens would rather remain citizens of Israel than live under the PA or any other Arab government in the region. Life is, indeed difficult for Arab Israelis, but that’s due to 40+ years of terror operations and not a state that practices systemic apartheid.


Avi from Jerusalem

18th September 2009 (6:21 pm)

Excuse me Doogie but my parents don’t want your smuggish sympathy and neither the lies you bolted on. Sderot (spell it right please) is on the green line 1km from Gaza, that is why the rockets reach there but the city is definitely NOT in Gaza (or West Bank before you get confused about that now). The Najd villagers you ignorantly talk of, approximately 620 people, were expelled in May 1948, that is before Israel was declared a state. Oh I forgot it doesn’t matter about the facts. By the way Sderot is a city of thousands of people now and 35% are under 21. You are obviously a man who thinks he is clever but the misinformation you spread on these sites can incite hate and cost lives. Read a book please.


Doogie

18th September 2009 (8:03 pm)

And now we’re into personal invective and anger, what a waste of time that is.

Lynne, Avi – Najd was a village in Gaza, and Sderot is now a city in Gaza, however much you might want to pretend otherwise. Gaza stretches all the way up beyond Ashkelon. What you like to call Gaza now is actually the so-called Gaza strip, the part of Gaza not seized by Israel during the 1948 war. Such geographical and cultural revisionism dogs the history of the Middle East, to the detriment of honest debate.

I have no wish to incite any hate, and I don’t think honestly held and respectfully expressed opinion should be criticised with that slur just because a disagreement is intense. I suspect that that attack, like the one which suggested that commenting from a distance is naive, are just the venting of frustration that others do not share your deep convictions. Well I don’t.


Jean

19th September 2009 (12:20 am)

Well articulated and factual Chris. I would only like to make a comment about the UN. My suspicions are that the UN generosity** in 1947 vote was that no one expected Israel to survive more than a year. I believe they knew, and were waiting for the Arab response, and possibly aided the Arabs in war preparations.
The Brits, for example, armed the Arabs, then stood aside while they massacred unarmed Jews. Just in case someone wants to bring it up, I don’t care to hear anything abour Deir Yassin. If you read history, not the revised edition, Deir Yassin was a terrorist sanctuary in 48, and therefore made itself into a legitimate target. Then, as now, the terrorists burrowed in with the civilians, and then cried about civilian casualties. These same terrorists were massacring Jewish civilians.
**Generosity – the UN modified the original Israeli homeland which was intended to include all of what is now called Jordan.


Daluvman

19th September 2009 (2:40 am)

Chris, your analysis is brilliant, your reasoning “True”. Of course you know that both Jew and Arab are cousins, heirs of Abraham. Yet, Israel had to fight and still has to fight to protect itself from being swallowed by her hostile cousins. Her Will to Fight and Endure is a hallmark of Israeli Resolve to survive…a very hard-won, hard-fought ongoing struggle.


Israelinurse

19th September 2009 (1:31 pm)

Terrific piece Chris.
What amuses me about people like Doogie here -and there are a lot of them about-is that they seem to think that they have a monopoly on deciding when history starts and finishes.

‘Such geographical and cultural revisionism dogs the history of the Middle East, to the detriment of honest debate.’

Indeed, so let’s talk about the Jewish villages in the Gaza strip before 1948 which had to be abandoned when Egypt invaded during the War of Independence.
And why stop there? Shall we discuss the implications of the fact that there is an 8th century synagogue near the port of modern-day Gaza city? That, of course, is before Islam even existed.
If you want to play the historical card, Doogie, then there are better people to play it with than Israelis: we have long, long memories!


Ruth

19th September 2009 (7:16 pm)

IsraeliNurse, I could not agree with you more.

I don’t understand how so many are either unaware and/or choose to ignore the fact that Israel and the ‘disputed territories’ have always maintained a Jewish presence. As for Gaza, I always thought people knew it had been a Jewish stronghold. My husband’s family, whom were once referred to as Palestinian Jews, talk of wonderful holidays spent in Gaza…before 1948 of course!
I read in the paper today that Ahmadinejad wants the world to stand against the ‘Zionist Entity’ because it’s very existence is based on the myth of the Shoah. Therefore denying the suffering of those 6 million Jews among many other groups, but also denying the entire history of the Jews and their ties to the land. I could even go so far that he denies what it says in his own holy book but, perhaps he’s not even worth discussing.

I suppose if you tell a lie enough times, people will start to believe it. Ignorance is not bliss…


Doogie

20th September 2009 (11:11 am)

Israelinurse – I completely agree the fault is on both sides. Your argument appears to be that two wrongs make a right. That is one of the fundamental problems with this debate. Just as Palestinian suicide bombers justify their unjustifiable acts of barbarism by pointing at unjustifiable Israeli barbarism, so unjustifiable Israeli revisionism is apparently justified by unjustifiable Arab revisionism.

When I point out one fault, you seem to hear me justifying another. I did not do so. I make no apologies for pointing out faults on the Israeli side on an article which was so completely one-sided in its support for the Israeli side.

There is clear evidence, collated by independent monitors and reported by the UN, that Israel has committed atrocities against the Palestinian people. There is also clear evidence, collated by independent monitors and reported widely by governments all over the world, that Hamas and other Palestinian organisations have committed atrocities against the Israeli people.

If you are genuinely concerned to end this horror, the last thing you need to do is to pretend that one of these reports is due to “anti-semitism”. It isn’t. It’s factual.


Chris Morris

20th September 2009 (1:00 pm)

@ Doogie – For the UN to single out the Jewish state for criticism and censure, while turning a blinded eye to genuine and undisputed human rights abuses in many other countries, including Zimbabwe, Darfur and Tibet, is, in my opinion, a symbolic invocation of prejudice against the Jewish people: an act of blatant and inexcusable antisemitism.

If you cannot see the problem, perhaps you are part of the problem.

The Goldstone report is a classic example of multi-layered spin. Most people think they are sophisticated enough to see through spin, and that’s part of the spin. The most effective politicians are the ones that embed ideas using fuzzy and junko logic. By flattering our self-image, it’s easy to make us think we think things. We even have the sense of having discovered these things as our own ideas. But that’s like saying a child who completes a dot the dot puzzle is a creative artist; adults know that the picture was embedded in advance.

Consider a very basic – and therefore easy to unpack – example. As Adam M noted earlier, Goldstone was mandated “to investigate all violations of international human rights law and international humanitarian law by the occupying Power, Israel, against the Palestinian people throughout the Occupied Palestinian Territory, particularly in the occupied Gaza Strip, due to the current aggression”. That was his legal obligation. However, in the introduction to his report he gave a different account, claiming he was asked “to investigate all violations of international human rights law and international humanitarian law that might have been committed at any time in the context of the military operations that were conducted in Gaza”. Not all the words are different, but the meaning is entirely different.

He did what he was asked to do, but his introduction constructs the false impression that he investigated the bigger picture and found most fault with Israel. The semantically dense phrase “Occupying Power” was also moved from the mandate to the report title – where it will feel to most people like it’s a conclusion of the report.

All this is only one dot – not particularly meaningful in itself – but when combined with hundreds of other dots, strategically placed, it creates an ugly picture. It’s the kind of picture that leads people to march through London – or Edinburgh – holding “we’re all Hezbollah now” banners. It’s the kind of picture that leads to people being marched to death camps. We should be better than that.


Ruth

20th September 2009 (4:27 pm)

I can’t speak for any commentators here but I can say that the people whom I have talked with about the Middle East, ( face to face I might add! ) seem to think that anti-semitism begins and ends with the Nazis and the Holocaust. They will make statements like; ” I go on anti-Nazi demos so I can’t be anti-semitic”, or ” I have Jewish friends so how could I possibly be anti-semitic?” or, the classic ” I’m not anti-semitic, I’m just anti-zionist “. Perhaps the best one I’ve heard lately is that by calling Israel’s critics ‘anti-semitic’ is the SAME as calling President Obama’s critics racist. I find it thoroughly interesting that the first man to come to Obama’s defence when he was called a liar by a member of congress was Jimmy Carter, say no more…
Anti-semitism has done and will continue to rear it’s ugly head in many forms. It’s been around for millennia and it certainly wasn’t something created by the author of Meine Kampf. It can be as subtle as a piece published on CiF or something altogether larger like The Goldstone Report. Let’s not forget this report was issued on behalf of the UNHRC, a council with members from countries with fantastic records on human rights; Saudi Arabia, Libya, Zimbabwe….
These countries also have many ideals in common when it comes to the Jews and Israel, there’s no point in pretending that they don’t.
I know Israel well, I have Israeli family and I also have Israeli Arab friends. Israel is not a perfect country, they make mistakes just like EVERY other nation. The difference with Israel is that they are constantly under attack, physically and verbally. To continually single out Israel for condemnation while a blind eye is turned towards the most severe human crises well, if there isn’t anti-semitism in that, then I don’t know what it is. If Cuba were firing rockets into the USA on a daily basis for 8+ years, well, do you think they would wait that long to respond? What would the USA deem to be a proportionate response?

I also wonder if all the armchair warriors who come out screaming ‘stolen land’ and ‘occupation’ every time Israel is mentioned in the press, do they do the same thing when the United States of America is mentioned? How about Australia? South Africa? Central and South America? Ireland? Why stop at boycotting produce from Israel and the ‘illegal settlements’? Let’s boycott American products too…

- Waiting for the time when Earth shall be as one!


Alan L

20th September 2009 (6:20 pm)

Hmm. Lot of straw man arguments here. But the debate remains civil which is by far the most important thing. I have a side-question to everyone about the term “anti-semitic”. I have always understood it to be a term of ethnic prejudice – a term which describes the ideology of being anti-Jewish, anti-Judaic, anti-Jew. Rather abhorrent, I hope we all agree. (Indeed, I hope we all agree that it’s as deeply unpleasant as being anti-Persian, anti-Arab, anti-Slavic, anti-Japanese or anything else). Can I ask if there is anyone here who understands it to mean “opposing the policies of the post-1948 Israeli state” ?

Because these really are two very different concepts and I for one think it’s (always) important to distinguish between (for example) Russians and Bolsheviks, Germans and Nazis, Chinese and CPCers, Americans and PNACers etc.

If “anti-Semitic” does in fact also include the second thing, then I’ll stand corrected and in good grace reconsider my position that militaristic policies which target civilians are criminal, regardless of which administration executes the policy. The last thing I want (genuinely) is to be justifiably accused of anti-semitism. But if it does not, please lets not go around saying things like “opposing policy in Tel Aviv is anti-Semitic” because that’s clearly a bit daft and doesn’t help.

I look forward to answers from anyone who has time to answer this side-question. Thanks in advance.


Shaun Conway

20th September 2009 (9:14 pm)

To Alan ——>Your post was to demonstrate what a straw man argument is?


Mark

20th September 2009 (9:47 pm)

I have learnt a lot from reading this so thanks to all sides


young_activist

20th September 2009 (10:48 pm)

Alan,
Your question can be answered with a simple test: have Jewish critics of Israel been accused of being anti-Semitic? The answer is decidedly yes, even Goldstone has been accused, though as an ardent Zionist and a respected jurrist the accusations against him are less mainstream than they are against others, such as Norman Finkelstein or Ilan Halevei, where they are almost unanimous in the mainstream. Just google “self-hating Jews” ans see what comes up.


young_activist

20th September 2009 (10:51 pm)

Chris,
What does Israel’s geographic size have to do with its responsibility to safeguard human rights, even only looking at the Israeli side did Cast Lead lead to more or less violent deaths, and what right does Israel have to be an ethnic state that officialy discriminates against people of certain demographic groups?


Ruth

21st September 2009 (12:07 am)

To Alan L,
If you’re going to define the term ‘anti-semitic’ etymologically, then it is a prejudice against all Semitic peoples, not only the Jews. As I am sure you are well aware, the Jews have been singled out consistently for the most horrendous persecution, for reasons which are beyond the understanding of our simple brains so… in time the term has come to mean something more specific. It’s highly probable that the term takes on a slightly different term to different people. Language evolves, what can you do about it?

I don’t however believe that anyone would understand it to mean “opposing the policies of the post-1948 Israeli state” . I do however believe that there is more than a touch of anti-semitism ( if we take the understanding of the term to mean ‘anti-Jew’ ) in people opposing the sovereignty and very existence of an Israeli state.

As for ” militaristic policies which target civilians “, this is not something I would tolerate in any way, shape or form. Civilian casualties and death will always be an outcome of any war. If Israel are guilty of the intentional targeting of civilians then somebody should be held accountable. Just as heads should roll in Gaza for the continued targeting of civilians in Israel, in fact, the heads of Hamas should roll for how they treat their own people. But, I stand by Israel’s right to defend herself and her citizens.
I was brought up in Northern Ireland. I know of many horrible events that involved the British army targeting civilians, most of these the general British public probably don’t even know about. I’ve also had the misfortune to meet civilians who deliberately targeted soldiers in the most horrific ways, not to mention civilians who target civilians. It was a nasty situation but even I can see that sometimes the military had to act for the greater good. We still have a military presence here but I don’t see the world up in arms about the ‘occupation’ here. Just to be clear, I am in no way comparing the trouble Israel faces to the situation that we have in Ireland!

All in all, I don’t think all criticism of Israel stems from anti-semitism, it also comes from ignorance and misinformation. And yes, at times criticism is just ( I’m critical of Israel for the sheer volume of paperwork I have to fill out for my daughter’s birth registration and passport…) but, no nation is perfect. I just think the world, and in particular, the UN, should shift their focus from Israel to the countries and people that are living in the most dire and most severe situations.

To young_activist,
Israel has the right to exist as a Jewish State just as Saudi Arabia has the right to exist as an Islamic State. Saudi Arabia and many other Islamic states officialy discriminate against people of certain demographic groups. Women generally have no rights at all in Saudi Arabia, Jews and Christians are expected to live in a state of ‘dhimmitude’ and if you’re homosexual, well…I need say no more. I have Israeli Arab friends who love the freedom of living in Israel, they do not feel ‘officially’ discriminated against, in fact, they feel ‘officially’ happy. I also know of an Arab lady who was over the moon because not only is she allowed to drive in Israel, but also because she is allowed to work as a bus driver. The security situation means EVERYONE is suspicious, fairskinned Arab, darkskinned Jew alike.


Doogie

21st September 2009 (10:26 am)

@ Chris – You and others keep returning to the same point, I think, and I consider it moot. You keep referring to the treatment of Israel in comparison to the treatment of others – whether they be other countries guilty of abuses, or other organisations guilty of terrorist acts.

The existence of another entity carrying out acts as bad as, or worse than, the first, changes nothing with regard to the culpability of the first for any acts it has carried out.

You see the UN as anti-semitic because you consider Israel’s actions to be less heinous than the actions of states which have not been censured by the UN. But think of it this way: if the UN tomorrow condemned Zimbabwean atrocities, Darfur slaughters and Tibet oppression, would that change anything in fact about the UN’s view of Israel? I would suggest not. These are independent events.

As for your join the dots metaphor, I think anyone could find such dots to support any point of view. I think you find them because of your pre-existing opinion, not the other way around. And I think there is probably a corner of the internet where the precise same documents are revealing completely different dots to people on the opposite side of the argument to you, and they are feeling as vindicated as you are.


Doogie

21st September 2009 (10:48 am)

@Ruth – I’m fascinated by the Carter reference about Obama and your exhortation to “say no more”. I’ve already expressed the opinion that it is as much anti-semitic to be critical of Israeli defence policy as it is racist to be critical of Obama’s health reforms. Can you make your argument against this more explicit for me? I don’t follow it.

You also seem to be the most complete exponent of the theory that two wrongs make a right, and I’d like to comment on the final instance of this in your later comment. You say “Israel has the right to exist as a Jewish State just as Saudi Arabia has the right to exist as an Islamic State.” Then you go on list the horrors of discrimination in an Islamic state while justifying the lesser discrimination of the Jewish state. Genuinely for me this sounds like the man who boasts that he only beat his wife, while his neighbour murdered his. No matter what his neighbour did, he beat his wife.

Personally I think theocracy is a contemptible way to run people’s lives, whatever god you claim to do the will of. Since there is no such thing as god, any state which bases any part of its law on what “god” says is ridiculous. Sadly, that covers the majority of states in the world to a greater or lesser degree.


Chris Morris

21st September 2009 (11:20 am)

Doogie, I salute your indefatigably.

On the other hand, repeating something does not make it so. Otherwise we’d all chant peace and be done. Nobody here has said that two wrongs make a right. In fact, nobody here who is standing up for Israel seems particularly bothered about being right. That is their strength. Right and wrong are how armchair activists judge complex situations from thousands of miles away; the people who are most directly affected by this tend to think about it on a different plane – one that is infinitely more practical and useful. Because this is about real people more than it is about pixels on the screen.

If the police in Edinburgh began arresting only black people who commit crimes – ignoring or downplaying the crimes of all other races – that would not only be inexcusable racism, it would universally be seen as inexcusable racism.

When the UN censures only Jewish leaders – ignoring or downplaying the crimes of all other races – that too is inexcusable racism.

And when the UN frames Jewish leaders for crimes they didn’t commit – while still ignoring or downplaying the real crimes of all other races – that’s a toxic evil.

Yes, I keep returning to the same point.

Because if you cannot get that, there’s nothing more to be said.


Doogie

21st September 2009 (2:26 pm)

Ah, more references to “armchair activists” as if everyone on the other side of the argument was typing from a command post in the West Bank rather than a couch in Windsor. You’ll excuse me if I don’t feel disabused by that. I happily acknowledge that I’m sitting in Edinburgh expressing an opinion, and I don’t think my location impacts on its validity.

Of course I am over-simplifying the argument by characterising it as two wrongs making a right. Of course “wrong” and “right” are subjective, a point I have already made. But let’s be honest here.

You talk about Israel “extending its boundaries outwards” while you describe how its Arab neighbours “invaded”. Perhaps you genuinely can’t see the double standard in this, but I’d be surprised. They are descriptions of the same thing, one full of self-justification, the other full of condemnation. And you justify the one by the other. My shorthand for that is two wrongs making a right.

As for your claim that the UN “censures only Jewish leaders – ignoring or downplaying the crimes of all other races”, this is pretty shameful I think. The UN has censured Israel, which is a state, not a race (and not a religion either). Making that connection between state and race as if the two concepts were interchangeable is frighteningly dangerous. It’s the same tactic as al-Qaeda uses to stir up hatred among Muslims when he talks about attacks on Islam. It is the language of fundamentalism.

Israel has contravened UN resolutions, and committed what amount to war crimes. Israel has been censured for this. The Jewish people have neither committed nor been censured for such actions. To suggest they have is dangerously inflammatory in my opinion. There are far too many stupid people in the world who will lap up that falsehood as easily as they lapped up “Muslims are terrorists”.


Alan L

21st September 2009 (7:36 pm)

“[...] that connection between state and race as if the two concepts were interchangeable [...]”

I think it cannot be stressed enough that territorial-administrative entities (ie. states) and ethno-national entities (ie. nations) are not the same kind of thing.

The confusion comes in our fuzzy use of the word ‘nation’ in the English language to sometimes mean ‘a political state’ when this is actually not what it means. For instance we have the word ‘international’ which in fact conveys the sense of ‘inter-state’. We also have multinational corporations – in fact they are multi-state corporations. Not least, we have a global political talking shop consistently referred to as the United Nations. It would more correctly described, amusingly enough, as the United States.

Jews and Israelis are not the same. We probably all know Jews who are not Israelis. And, as several thread participants indicated higher up, there are not a small number of Israelis who are not Jews.


Ruth

21st September 2009 (9:37 pm)

Dear Doogie,

Firstly, I have NEVER justified Israeli discrimination whilst condemning Saudi discrimination. I am merely commenting on my own experiences in Israel as I have spent enough time there to be able to see for myself that by and large there is not an official policy of discrimination against different ethnic groups. In my experiences, EVERYONE is treated like a suspect but this is the environment that they have been forced to live in. Perhaps you should read my comment again and you will see that it is a response to another’s commentator’s question of ‘what right does Israel have to exist as an ethnic state that officially discriminates against people of certain demographic groups?’ By pointing out that Saudi Arabia is an ethnic state that officially discriminates against people of certain demographic groups does not in any way suggest that I justify the actions of Israel nor does it suggest that I believe that if the Saudi’s can get away with it then the Israeli’s should get away with it too. All my Israeli Arab friends live full and free lives, this is a fact. They also peacefully co-exist with Jews, Christians and many more. I’m sorry that if you think my divulging of this personal information means that I tolerate the discrimination of Arabs/Bedouins and other ethnic groups in other parts of Israel. This is my experience of life in Israel and maybe I have been blessed but it’s still a valid part of Middle Eastern life that people should know about.

‘You also seem to be the most complete exponent of the theory that two wrongs make a right’. How so? Because I was brought up surrounded by terrorism and military occupation? Because my childhood environment was ‘tit for tat’? You could not be further from the truth.An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. Maybe because, in my experience, the British Army sometimes had to act against civilians for the greater good. All life is sacred, but if the saving of many civilian lives comes at the price of a few IRA or LVF members then yes, I am indeed the most complete exponent of the theory that two wrongs make a right. But this is not about Ireland, this is about Israel.

All of us ‘armchair warriors’ are never going to change the situation out there. We sit here crouched over our keyboards, each one of us convinced that ‘I’m right and you’re wrong’. At the end of the day, I’m not going to convince you or anyone else of what I know and what I’ve experienced, nor will you convince me. This kind of debate has it’s place, but it’s not going to change the world.

As for your question regarding Obama, in my opinion, accusing Israel’s critics as anti-semitic is not the same as accusing Obama’s critics as racist. I have made no reference to the IDF nor have I made reference to Obama’s healthcare reforms. I am talking in general terms, if we’re going to get specific then that’s an entirely different thing as I don’t believe all criticism of Israel is anti-semitic but I do believe a certain amount of criticism against Obama is definitely racially motivated. I have no argument here, just my lowly opinion. And you’re fascinated by my Carter remark? Well, this isn’t the forum for discussions on Jimmy Carter, I just happen to find him an interesting character.

Anyway, peace out from one armchair warrior to all the others. Goodnight.


Ruth

21st September 2009 (9:49 pm)

@ Doogie

“Since there is no such thing as god”

I don’t have proof of the existence of a divine power. Are you being provocative or do you have definitive proof?! I would love to know for sure myself…


A link to this blog page

21st September 2009 (9:56 pm)

[...] Bowen’s wrong-headed interpretation, compare it with this eloquent analysis. Don’t ask the Jews to offer the Palestinians a bunch of helium love-hearts, or [...]


Ruth

21st September 2009 (11:34 pm)

Alan L

Jewish and Israeli are not the same thing. I’d say that a good percentage of people don’t actually realise this fact. Perhaps there is more danger in this than people care to acknowledge.

But, when you have those who are in power of Iran referring to Israel as that ‘Zionist Entity’, you can’t really blame people for becoming confused.

Maybe the spoken word and the power of the pen are the most dangerous weapons of all…


Jean

22nd September 2009 (3:23 am)

Ruthie, check out Rabbi Yossi Mizrachi at divineinformation.com, video or audio of Torah and Science.

On the subject of Israel, I am unashamedly supportive of Israel, who despite all the problems, has created a vibrant, inclusive state surrounded by some of the most repressive and backward countries in the history of the world.

Here is a book I’ve enjoyed reading from cover to cover, ‘The Boats of Cherbourg’. The best parts were the stories of the individuals who assisted Israel in small ways which allowed Israel to get their missile boats out of Cherbourg to Haifi in time for the Yom Kippur war.


Doogie

22nd September 2009 (8:35 am)

@ Ruth, I appreciate your responses, and I think we’re probably more in agreement than we appear. I am happy to acknowledge that Israel has a lot going for it, just as you seem happy to acknowledge that it isn’t perfect.

Ref the existence of god – of course one cannot prove a negative, but I say there is no such thing as god with the same assurance with which I say there is no invisible pink unicorn orbiting my desk. I can’t prove that, and it would certainly explain why my black pens keep going missing, but I reasonably sure I’m right all the same. Peace out.


A link to this blog page

22nd September 2009 (9:39 am)

[...] by Chris Morris [...]


Ruth

22nd September 2009 (11:48 am)

Jean,
Thank you for the suggestions, I will check them out. I too am supportive of Israel despite everything. I’ve met so many wonderful people out there, from all faiths and races. I just hope that some day that what I’ve experienced in the Middle East, will be the experience of every single human life out there.

@ Doogie, I like the idea of an invisible pink unicorn orbiting your desk. If you prove that there is one there , then perhaps you could send one my way :)


Rob Farrington

23rd September 2009 (12:20 am)

First time here – brilliant post; it expresses the same feelings I have, but in much better words than I ever could!


Avi from Jerusalem

24th September 2009 (10:01 am)

Chris Morris said he had been to the ‘West Bank’ area and I assume Israel too Chris? Alan, Doogie, you have visited too?


Doogie

24th September 2009 (1:17 pm)

@Avi, No, I haven’t. I hope that meets with your expectations.

But it gets worse. I’ve never been to South Africa either, but I had the temerity in times gone by to express opinions about apartheid. I’ve never been to Egypt, but like a true armchair warrior I’ve banged on about human rights abuses there nonetheless.

I’m off now to plot a map of countries I’m fit to comment on – and to give myself a good slap for my past sins.


Avi from Jerusalem

24th September 2009 (4:19 pm)

A defensive reply is not needed because I only inquired about a fact.


Caroline W

24th September 2009 (7:11 pm)

It is easy to imagine “Doogie” in the 30s, don’t you think?

Irresponsible Doogie. Irresponsible!

You rely on biased media and think you know better than the people on the ground.

I myself do not know everything so say I don’t, then I can learn more.


mdebusk

25th September 2009 (3:47 am)

Quite a subject you’ve brought up, Chris. I’ll only remark that I agree with you and ask if you’ve read The Case for Israel by Alan Dershowitz (ISBN-10: 0471679526; ISBN-13: 978-0471679523 ). It’s excellent.


Doogie

25th September 2009 (9:24 am)

Caroline, drop the shrill personal invective, it doesn’t help. I have never stated that I know better than others, nor that I know everything. Objectivity will not come from the media, nor from people “on the ground”, nor from me, nor from you, nor from anyone posting here.

I’ll tell you what I think is “Irresponsible!” Caroline, and that is calling the UN anti-semitic because it has condemned acts of barbarity by the state of Israel. The more you discredit the only organisation in a position to steer a path towards peace, the further away you push peace.

Perhaps one difference between me and some others posting here is that I want this conflict to end in peace, while others want it to end in victory.


James T

25th September 2009 (3:03 pm)

Oh Doogie, stop trying to be right. It’s painful to read.

James

(Not Jewish, not particularly a fan of Israel)


Alan L

25th September 2009 (6:34 pm)

Avi, thank you for your question. The answer is no – but I would like to very much. One reason I am very curious to visit both Israel and the Palestinian territories is because – you and I never know! – it might even change my the way I think about the Middle East question.

I should point out I am open to having my mind changed by rational argument – though, as you can see from my thoughts above, I am fairly closed to having my mind changed by emotional argument.

Neither am I persuaded by the idea that “ends justify means” because I am afraid that such a philosophy only leads man to unleash all sorts of inhumanity upon his neighbour in the quest for the “end” his ego desires.

At the end of the day we all have 23 pairs of chromosomes. I’m not convinced there are any significant distinctions after that point. Certainly no distinctions worth killing and dying for.


Michaela

29th September 2009 (12:26 pm)

I don’t have words or an argument of my own, just these words that I took off amazon.com which reflect how I feel about any drama.
The book is apparently by Corrie Ten Boom and called ‘The Hiding Place’:
‘Corrie Ten Boom stood naked with her older sister Betsie, watching a concentration camp matron beating a prisoner.”Oh, the poor woman,” Corrie cried.”Yes. May God forgive her,” Betsie replied. And, once again, Corrie realized that it was for the souls of the brutal Nazi guards that her sister prayed.’

All sides appear to me to be filled with fear which they often try to disguise as hate.

- Michaela


Alan L

16th November 2009 (8:02 pm)

A book for Christmas reading lists!

mdebusk has already made one excellent suggestion (see above), so I thought I’d throw in another one.

Much of the difficulty in building peace in the Middle East is bound up in the terms in which the establishment of Israel is perceived.

Does the creation of the modern state of Israel predominantly represent:

a) the homecoming of a millenia-old people in exile to their God-given promised land?

b) a practical geo-political solution whereby a widely-acknowledged (but landless) European nation is granted territorial self-determination in the only (somewhat)-available territory it can substantially argue for (which happens to be outside Europe).

c) A colonial project by the Atlantic Powers, intended to establish a beach-head puppet state in the Levant (approximately where the Crusader Kingdom once stood) and to legitimate the new state by populating it with a stateless nation from Europe which reifies that region as its homeland in its national mythos.

I tend to favour b), that is, I see the modern state of Israel as a well-intended settlement project with geopolitical pragmatism at its root, regardless of the violence prior and subsequent to the establishment of the state.

This book, by appearances, contains a thesis which opposes position a):

“The Invention of the Jewish People” by Shlomo Sand
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Invention-Jewish-People-Shlomo-Sand/dp/1844674223/

I will be particularly interested to read this, as it takes as its starting point the theories of Nationalism by Ernest Gellner and Benedict Anderson, two scholars (amongst many others) I found influential when writing my MA thesis on the Rusyn people of the Carpathian Region.


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