Timur Tengah: Apa yang akan Anda lakukan?
Tidak ada yang membuat teman-teman baru dengan menulis tentang Timur Tengah. Apa pun yang Anda katakan, seseorang akan mendapatkan marah. Jadi godaan adalah mengatakan apa-apa.
Tapi setelah membaca PBB (Goldstone) melaporkan tentang Gaza, aku tidak ingin mengatakan apa-apa.
Aku suka cita-cita PBB. Saya telah mengunjungi dan membantu di markas besar mereka di New York, dan berdiri di dalam Dewan Keamanan PBB Chamber - fokus dari begitu banyak perhatian internasional selama lebih dari Aku sudah hidup - adalah sebuah pengalaman ajaib bagi saya. Saya juga berpikir sebagian besar orang-orang yang bekerja dan relawan untuk PBB antusias, idealis dan orang-orang hebat.
Tapi saya rasa PBB lemah, bias, antisemitic dan mendiskreditkan ketika datang ke Timur Tengah.
Apakah Anda tahu bahwa negara Yahudi lebih kecil dari Wales dan memiliki populasi kurang dari Greater London? Apakah Anda tahu bahwa itu dikelilingi oleh Arab tetangga dengan banyak seratus kali lebih daratan dan sekitar 50 kali lebih banyak orang? Dan apakah Anda tahu bahwa beberapa orang yang kuat tetangga-tetangga Arab menyatakan perang terhadap Israel pada pagi hari pertama keberadaannya, hanya karena mereka tidak - dan sebagian besar masih belum - pikirkan sebuah negara Yahudi harus dibiarkan ada?
Mitos besar adalah bahwa konflik Timur Tengah adalah mengenai tanah. Tentu saja itu benar-benar tentang ideologi dan kekuasaan.
Tanah Israel telah menjadi wilayah Yahudi sejak zaman para nabi (dan saya maksud Alkitab wasiat tua; ribuan tahun sebelum masehi). Itu jarang penduduknya hampir sepanjang beberapa ratus tahun terakhir, sampai massa pertama imigrasi ke daerah antara 1880 dan 1920. Orang imigran orang-orang Yahudi melarikan diri dari Rusia dan Eropa Timur pogrom, dan bahwa tanah itu oasis harapan mereka. Sebagai imbalannya mereka napas kehidupan ke kering yang sebagian besar lansekap. Mereka membangun wilayah dari sebagian besar padang pasir berdebu menjadi sebuah negara dengan infrastruktur. Mereka membangun perekonomian dari hampir tidak ada sesuatu yang menjadi lebih kuat dan lebih kuat.
Lebih banyak orang Yahudi pindah ke sana selama dua dekade berikutnya, banyak melarikan diri bangkitnya Nazisme di 30-an. Mereka membangun infrastruktur dan ekonomi. Mereka membangun kembali Yerusalem. Mereka diinvestasikan kembali dalam komunitas mereka untuk membuat mereka kuat, setiap waktu meminta untuk menentukan nasib sendiri dan pemerintahan sendiri.
Israel resmi modern diciptakan sebagai sebuah negara - oleh PBB, ironisnya - pada tahun 1948. Itu adalah tempat yang pengungsi dari Holocaust bisa pergi untuk memulai hidup baru. Orang sering dituduh emotif ketika menyebutkan Holocaust, tetapi mengapa tidak menjadi emosi? Itu relevan bahwa banyak dari para pendiri Israel modern adalah orang-orang yang telah mengerikan diperlakukan, tidak hanya oleh Jerman dan Nazi, tetapi juga oleh banyak negara-negara yang menolak mereka suaka setelah perang. Itu sakit dan memalukan bahwa orang-orang yang telah kehilangan keluarga mereka dan rumah mereka, dan semua harta mereka, dibiarkan mati dan membusuk di kapal yang tergantung di lepas pantai negara - termasuk Britania Raya - bahwa tidak akan membiarkan mereka masuk
Israel adalah tempat perlindungan mereka. Orang Yahudi setuju dengan syarat-syarat resolusi PBB yang memberi mereka rumah - dan kemudian, segera, mereka menyerang dan diserang oleh Irak, Suriah dan lain-lain.
It's melawan latar belakang ini bahwa Israel telah reaktif dan proaktif membela diri terhadap agresor selama 61 tahun.
Dengan memperpanjang batas-batasnya ke luar, roket musuh didesak mundur dan tidak bisa lagi mencapai kota-kota berpenduduk padat. Yang tampaknya seperti gagasan yang masuk akal untuk saya. Ini solusi yang tidak sempurna tentu saja, tapi itu jauh lebih menyelamatkan nyawa daripada biaya. Apa yang akan Anda lakukan jika seseorang yang ingin kau mati telah roket yang ditujukan untuk rumah Anda? Mendorong roket kembali ke kejauhan dimana mereka jauh lebih sedikit dari ancaman mungkin adalah pilihan paling damai yang tersedia dalam situasi tersebut.
Sama dengan "dinding". Tentu saja ini merepotkan dan memalukan bagi orang-orang (baik orang Yahudi dan Arab) harus dihentikan di pos pemeriksaan, dan ini telah secara dramatis mengurangi bom bunuh diri dan menyelamatkan banyak nyawa. Ini tidak sempurna, tapi apa? Apa yang akan Anda lakukan jika orang itu meniup diri mereka di lingkungan Anda?
Aku tidak ke dalam kasus agama bagi Israel. Setiap dari kita memiliki dewa kita sendiri atau dewa-dewa, dan hanya sedikit dari mereka tampaknya sepakat pada sangat banyak. Ini tidak relevan bagi saya bahwa banyak orang Yahudi melihat Israel sebagai spiritual mereka rumah atau tanah yang dijanjikan. Yang penting adalah kebenaran dari sejarah - apa yang penting adalah bahwa orang-orang ini menghebohkan mengatasi hambatan untuk membangun sesuatu yang indah, dan tidak ada ketakutan dan kebencian harus menghalangi mereka dari rumah lain.
Presiden Iran Mahmoud Ahmadinejad mengancam Holocaust kedua bukan karena dia ingin beberapa tambahan mil persegi tanah, tetapi karena ia tidak ingin orang Yahudi memiliki sebuah rumah di bahwa 95%-wilayah Islam.
Orang suka mengatakan "oh itu semua sangat rumit". Orang suka bilang "oh ada dua sisi untuk setiap cerita". Mereka hanya malas tidak memiliki cara berpikir.
Apa sisi cerita?
Ini bukan masalah rumit sekali Anda menyadari bahwa tiga rubah dan ayam pemungutan suara pada apa yang telah untuk makan malam tidak demokrasi. Laporan PBB menyingkapkan kepercayaan bahwa beberapa orang masih ada di PBB karena Goldstone telah dengan sengaja dan sinis mewakili peristiwa untuk menenangkan kekerasan mayoritas.
Ada faktor lain juga. Saya pikir sangat jauh di luar wilayah kita pemahaman bahwa sebagian besar dari kita tidak bisa percaya bahwa ibu bisa menggunakan bayi-bayi mereka sendiri sebagai perisai manusia. Bahkan ketika saya melihat rekaman video Hamas menembakkan roket dari atap sekolah - menyadari bahwa balas dendam akan membunuh anak-anak bermain di dalam dan oleh karena itu melemparkan Israel sebagai agresor nastier lebih besar dan - entah itu masih tampak nyata bagiku. Hanya saja tidak bisa. Hal ini tidak bisa. Tapi ini. Ini adalah.
Anak-anak yang bertahan penyalahgunaan ini adalah masa depan dan mungkin suatu hari memegang masa depan kita di tangan mereka. Harapan apa yang mereka miliki? PBB sekolah-sekolah di Gaza Hamas baru-baru ini bertanya apakah itu akan ok untuk mengajarkan kurikulum standar, termasuk beberapa pelajaran sejarah tentang Perang Dunia 2 dan Nazi Holocaust. Tentu saja agresif Hamas menolak izin.
Di mana lagi di dunia ini meminta PBB teroris apa it's ok untuk mengajar di kelas sejarah?
Lihat video yang provokatif di bawah ini untuk melihat bagaimana anak-anak tumbuh dalam fasilitas yang didanai PBB di Gaza.
Israel jelas tidak sempurna. Tidak ada dan tidak ada negara. Tapi aku akan mengatakan sesuatu - mereka jauh lebih tertahan daripada yang pernah berada di sepatu mereka. Jika anda memukul seseorang yang kusayangi, Aku tidak tertarik dalam menghitung apa yang merupakan respons proporsional. Aku akan memukul Anda kembali sekeras mungkin, dan ketika Anda berdiri, aku akan memukul Anda lagi bahkan lebih keras. Dan aku tahu itu bukan cara yang ideal untuk menjadi - dan kami semua bisa guru Zen - tetapi jika orangtua Anda tewas dalam kamp kematian Nazi dan anak-anakmu dibunuh oleh seorang pembom bunuh diri, apa yang dianggap sebagai respons yang proporsional? Ketika Anda telah kehilangan segalanya, dibangun lagi dari nol dan kemudian memiliki penuh benci orang yang mencoba untuk mengambil semua itu lagi, apa sih jawaban yang proporsional?
Apa yang akan Anda lakukan? Ini tidak baik untuk dipertimbangkan, tapi ini satu-satunya cara untuk menjadikannya nyata. Dan itulah satu-satunya cara untuk mencari solusi kolektif.
Saya sarankan membaca bab ini (tersedia gratis) dari Not In My Name.
Semua anak berhak mendapatkan lebih baik daripada ini:
81 comments
Cemerlang menaruh, Chris - dan tidak yakin apakah ini adalah baris anda awalnya ( "Ini bukan masalah rumit sekali Anda menyadari bahwa tiga rubah dan ayam pemungutan suara pada apa yang telah untuk makan malam tidak demokrasi.") Tapi kalau ya, silakan tahu bahwa itu IMHO jenis garis yang dapat mengubah dunia!
Well done dan terima kasih.
Kau laki-laki yang indah.
Analisis besar Chris. Aku penasaran pada Anda mengambil semua ini jika Anda akan lihat dari sisi Arab, dengan mempertimbangkan beberapa posisi persepsi dan apa yang mungkin niat positif bisa berada di balik tindakan mereka.
Juga, blogentry Anda menawarkan banyak wawasan dan pikiran tetapi tidak menjawab pertanyaan asli Anda, "Apa yang akan Anda lakukan?".
Thanks Michael dan Julie!
@ Damian - Apa yang akan saya lakukan? Saya mungkin akan menulis tentang semua ini dengan cara yang membuat sekelompok orang berpikir dalam aliran tertentu, karena bersama-sama saya kira kita akan menemukan solusi lebih cepat daripada hanya satu. Perubahan-perubahan yang terjadi baik ketika kita menjadi katalis untuk menginspirasi dan memprovokasi dan menuntut perubahan dari satu sama lain.
Ketika aku berada di Tepi Barat dua tahun yang lalu, saya melakukan trans dalam identifikasi dengan beberapa orang di sana. Rasa pasti bahwa mereka itu baik, tulus orang di sana. Sangat sedikit orang di dunia pernah berniat untuk melakukan perbuatan buruk dan bahkan lebih sedikit berniat untuk menjadi buruk. Namun, saya pikir banyak orang di dunia adalah sesat dan salah arah dengan kuat dan kadang-kadang tertarik diri pemimpin. Dimensi keuangan ini adalah yang paling mudah untuk menunjukkan karena telah terbukti berkali-kali bahwa tidak ada alasan bagi orang-orang di daerah itu mati kelaparan atau menjadi tunawisma. Bantuan yang pergi ke sana sangat besar. Namun banyak dari apa yang tidak dibelanjakan untuk senjata dan pelatihan teroris ditimbun dalam rekening bank pemimpin teroris kriminal. Karena ini berguna bagi mereka untuk menjaga orang-orang miskin dan lapar.
Mengapa setiap pemimpin melakukan hal itu kepada orang-orang mereka? Aku tidak tahu tentu saja, tapi sedikit mengingatkan saya ketika saya minum teh dengan Baroness Young. Aku sedang berkampanye untuk perubahan dalam undang-undang untuk membawa kesetaraan bagi orang gay dan ia menentang reformasi. Baroness Young adalah orang yang sangat baik. Dia sangat baik padaku. Tapi pada dasarnya dia berpikir bahwa jika aku mendapat cara dunia saya akan pergi ke neraka dalam gerobak. Berikut sedikit penting: dia tahu argumen logis yang cacat - dia mengesampingkan dan menari-nari di sekitar isu-isu indah. Ketika aku outfoxed, dia tersenyum dan menawariku teh lagi. Kami minum banyak teh. Tapi aku masih percaya bahwa ia sedang tulus karena dia percaya begitu kuat bahwa, sebagai orang Kristen yang baik, ia berada di jalan yang benar. Secara sederhana: ia tahu ia benar, tidak peduli apa.
Rasa malu ini adalah apa yang terjadi dengan anggapan bila Anda berfokus terlalu dekat pada apa yang Anda "tahu" untuk menjadi benar. Mana PBB di Tibet, Darfur dan seluruh dunia? Orang ini dari PBB Watch menaruhnya lebih baik daripada yang saya dapat: Banned UN Speech: Nightmare Hak Asasi Manusia. It's a menarik video; Saya sarankan menontonnya.
Ini adalah salah satu diletakkan article.It sangat bias.There dua sisi koin. Aku bersimpati kepada Israel belum, ada cerita lain harus diberitahu atas kejahatan Israel telah dilakukan sejak didirikan di negeri ini, oleh sekutu tak lama setelah berakhirnya WW II.
Saya pikir hanya adil bagi Anda atau seseorang untuk menulis seluruh cerita.
Kebenaran yang nyata dalam hal ini adalah bahwa jika tidak ada bagi tahunan BESAR bantuan AS, Israel tidak akan exist.The masa depan Amerika Serikat terlihat sangat bersinar dan dalam semua kemungkinan kebijakan luar negeri AS sudah changing.If saya adalah seorang Israel Aku akan serius dapat memikirkan kembali sikap saya dan praktik. Israel memiliki pengalaman, pengetahuan, dan teknologi untuk berbuat lebih baik. Saya tahu sulit untuk berurusan dengan tetangga itu, tapi kalau ada satu sunting y yang dapat berhasil melakukannya dan mempunyai kerjasama yang damai itu tidak eksistensi PBB atau Amerika Serikat itu adalah Israel itu sendiri.
Chris artikel yang sangat baik, ditulis dengan baik dan berani. Saya setuju dengan bagian ini khususnya:
Orang suka mengatakan "oh itu semua sangat rumit". Orang suka bilang "oh ada dua sisi untuk setiap cerita". Mereka hanya malas tidak memiliki cara berpikir.
untuk chris e -> berbicara tentang satu sisi, perhatikan angka-angka [2008]
* Bantuan AS kepada Israel (populasi 7,5 juta) - aprox $ 2,4 milyar
* Bantuan AS ke Gaza (populasi 0,4 juta) - aprox $ 1,1 milyar
Untuk Shaun Conway
Coba Anda bahwa lagi Anda salah.
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/usaid.html
Saya tidak melihat alasan APAPUN bagi setiap satu untuk eksis sebagai bangsa jika ada orang lain harus membayar untuk eksistensi. Lebih lanjut ada genocides terjadi di seluruh abad ke-20 ke-hari di Afrika, dan tak seorang pun memberikan tikus pantat tentang it.Is ini karena Amerika Serikat telah NO interst di Afrika (belum)? Ayo nyata di sini faktanya (seperti sedih karena) negara Israel ada di kesenangan dari Amerika Serikat.
Pernyataan bahwa saya sebelumnya jika saya adalah seorang Israel Aku akan memikirkan kembali strategi saya adalah MENGUBAH truth.Things memegang dan pada akhirnya AS akan menjatuhkan suara aid.I tahu sekarang mustahil untuk percaya, tapi begitu pula akhir dekade semacam komunisme sebelumnya.
Situs itu menegaskan apa kata Shaun: $ 7m per hari adalah aprox $ 2.4b per tahun. Dan AS memberikan beberapa miliar dolar ke Afrika setiap tahun juga, dan telah dilakukan untuk waktu yang lama.
Kau benar, ini merupakan topik pembakar.
Kadang-kadang sangat sulit untuk membicarakan hal itu karena ada begitu banyak (di kedua sisi) yang bersikeras bahwa jika Anda tidak mendukung sisi A, maka Anda harus mendukung sisi B (atau sebaliknya). Self-jelas, meskipun, keberpihakan bukan merupakan kewajiban.
Selain itu ada orang-orang yang simplistically bersikeras bahwa jika Anda tidak mendukung administrasi maka kamu melawan orang-orang yang namanya bertindak. Harus sempurna jelas bahwa tindakan apapun negara modern atau pemerintah daerah dapat agak dan kadang-kadang benar-benar representatif dari pemilih.
Sayangnya, ada sedikit airtime diberikan kepada mereka yang tidak mendukung dan tidak tertarik pada ide menarik secara emosional 'sisi'.
Penjara, mutilasi, pembakaran, pengeboman, maiming dan pembunuhan adalah kejahatan. Para etnis atau kepercayaan dari pelaku adalah penyimpangan. Tidak, sungguh. It's totally tidak relevan.
Penjahat harus dilakukan untuk menjawab atas kejahatan mereka. Berteriak: "Dia memukul saya dulu, Pak!" Atau barangkali bahkan "Tapi ia akan memukul saya!" Bukan alasan yang harus diperbolehkan untuk mencuci.
Tidak ada alasan untuk melanjutkan penahanan Gilad Shalit, yang bulldozing rumah, roket yang ditembakkan Hamas ke wilayah sipil, menembak warga sipil, bom di diskotik, tembok yang meragukan legalitas dan seterusnya dan seterusnya. Semua yang penting pada akhir hari adalah berapa banyak orang yang akan masih hidup hari ini atau berjalan tanpa bantuan yang sekarang telah secara permanen cacat atau dibunuh sebagai konsekuensi dari perilaku kriminal. Dan berapa banyak akan menikmati kehidupan yang lebih baik jika mereka tidak terus-menerus hidup dalam ketakutan.
Secara pribadi, saya melihat lebih banyak pembenaran untuk Negara Nasional Yahudi seperti untuk Nasional Finlandia Negara atau Negara Nasional Slowakia dll Jika kita ingin menerima bahwa bangsa ada pada tingkat tertentu dan bahwa, dalam kondisi tertentu, bangsa-bangsa itu dapat diberikan mereka sendiri negara-negara nasional (atau polities), maka hanya tampaknya masuk akal bahwa semua orang menerima uncontroversially kita sebagai bangsa yang dapat menunjukkan mayoritas mendukung plebisit dalam menentukan nasib sendiri teritorial mungkin diberikan pemerintahan nasional, memberikan mereka dapat menjawab dan memenuhi kriteria universal tertentu dalam pembentukan dan menjalankan pemerintahan mereka.
Tunduk pada pasca-Perang Dunia II 'pembekuan' batas-batas negara, mungkin terlambat untuk kembali mengenali orang-orang Yahudi sebagai bangsa Eropa dan menciptakan Israel di suatu tempat di wilayah Eropa secara tradisional Ashkenazic dihuni oleh orang-orang Yahudi, yang agak memalukan, Aku merasa. Pemimpin Eropa pada saat itu - Stalin yang paling penting - gembira mencuci tangan mereka dari Eropa "Pertanyaan Yahudi" dengan melakukan ekspor ke Timur Tengah.
Jadi, Levant itu kemudian. Setiap solusi damai yang ditimbulkan oleh cara-cara damai itu baik, tetapi saya tidak benar-benar yakin bahwa solusi dua negara dapat bekerja, terutama mengingat sifat batas administratif. Jadi ... bagaimana kita bisa menjamin penentuan nasib sendiri nasional (mis. sebuah negara nasional atau pemerintahan) bagi bangsa Yahudi dan bagi bangsa Palestina? Mungkin satu-negara federal solusi dengan dua identitas (Israel - Negara Nasional Yahudi / Palestina - Nasional Palestina Negara) dan etnis yang berbeda di setiap federal Mixes konstituensi dan semi-independen Yerusalem dengan tingkat pemerintahan sendiri, umumnya di luar kerangka bersama-sama memegang konstituen federal lainnya mungkin solusi yang lebih progresif.
Akan ada, tentu saja, selalu menjadi orang-orang yang berpendapat bahwa bangsa Palestina bukan bangsa, mereka hanya Yordania dan tidak dapat dianggap sebagai orang pada tingkat ontologis yang sama seperti orang-orang Yahudi Israel. Sayangnya hal ini sampai ke akar terselesaikan pertanyaan "Apa yang dimaksud dengan bangsa?" (Atau bahkan "Kapan suatu bangsa?" - Lihat Walker Connor) dan ini bukan pertanyaan yang kemungkinan akan dijawab dalam waktu dekat. (Lihat: Bulgaria / Makedonia & Rumania / Moldovans & Rusia / Ukraina dll)
Meskipun demikian fakta dari masalah ini adalah bahwa dengan luar bantuan AS tidak akan ada masalah karena tak satu pun dari mereka akan ada.
Great artikel Chris. Aku tidak tahu banyak tentang situasi di Israel untuk memberikan komentar berpendidikan tetapi Anda telah mendorong saya terus untuk mengetahui lebih banyak tentang hal itu.
I think it's mengagumkan untuk menempatkan diri di luar sana dengan cara ini mengetahui bahwa beberapa orang akan tidak setuju dan kurasa kau bahagia bagi mereka untuk melakukan hal itu, karena pada akhirnya hal itu membuat orang berpikir ... dan mudah-mudahan berpikir untuk diri mereka sendiri.
Sangat baik manipulasi emosi melalui retorika, Chris. Aku hampir jatuh untuk semua yang prok-perangkap. Tapi aku rasa Anda benar-benar membuat kesalahan dalam argumentasi Anda ketika Anda begitu fasih membenarkan kekerasan tak terkendali, bukan respons yang proporsional terhadap agresor.
Juga, saya tidak tahu mengapa, jika Anda berpikir agama dan "rumah spiritual" argumen yang tidak relevan, bahwa Anda mencantumkan itu di tempat pertama. Hal ini, setelah semua, salah satu pembenaran utama yang digunakan para pendatang ilegal mereka untuk membenarkan pendudukan tanah Palestina. Saya menduga bahwa apa yang telah Anda lakukan (sadar, atau sebaliknya) adalah serangkaian dibangun banding ke emosi untuk mendukung argumen anda.
Yeah. Great idea.
Itulah yang punya tempat itu sedemikian berantakan di tempat pertama. Sekelompok pemarah penanaman bom dan membunuh orang. Maksudku, tentu saja para teroris yang terbaring bom untuk membunuh pasukan Inggris saat mereka beristirahat. Badan terbang pulang dalam terbakar sedikit bit, ke Britania yang baru saja berperang melawan mereka penindas Nazi. Sekarang, apa yang orang-orang yang disebut teroris? Irgun, itu benar. Cukup efektif teroris, mereka. Tahun berikutnya mereka membantai 107 warga sipil tidak bersenjata Arab, termasuk wanita dan anak-anak kecil yang tenang sebelumnya semi-desa pedesaan Deir Yassin.
Hmmm, membuat Anda berpikir: tak heran orang-orang Arab adalah takut orang-orang Yahudi, bukan, kalau itu yang mereka mau melakukan ..?
Tapi sekarang aku akan berhenti. Anda lihat, Chris, membuat permohonan kepada emosi yang satu ini adalah langkah yang buruk. Harus ada jawaban yang satu ini di suatu tempat - tetapi tidak dalam blog Anda.
Tidak, itu sudah pasti.
Itu salah satu untuk kepala lebih sejuk daripada orang-orang seperti Anda dan saya. Orang-orang yang, mudah-mudahan, jangan hanya menghasut sakit-perasaan, menggali dalam pada kemarahan dan berkubu bahkan lebih. Yup, satu untuk kepala yang lebih bijaksana daripada yang saya miliki di pundakku. Dan Anda miliki di tangan Anda.
Kedamaian.
Matt.
Sangat merangsang pemikiran - thanks Chris.
Well said, Chris. Thanks for this.
Bahwa video membuatku menangis, tapi aku lebih suka menangis daripada blinkered.
Terima kasih untuk membuka mataku untuk beberapa hal, bahkan jika Anda basah mereka dalam proses.
( "Ini bukan masalah rumit sekali Anda menyadari bahwa tiga rubah dan ayam pemungutan suara pada apa yang telah untuk makan malam tidak demokrasi.")
Ini adalah jantung dari masalah, baik rubah dan ayam percaya bahwa mereka memiliki hak di pihak mereka dan cenderung tidak setuju dengan cepat. Apa yang akan saya lakukan?
Aku akan mencari cara untuk menghentikan mereka berinteraksi secara fisik sementara mereka menenangkan diri. Ini bisa memakan waktu cukup lama.
Yang rubah harus berhenti dari menyerang ayam dan ayam harus berhenti dari mengambil tanah dan sumber daya di luar peternakan. Masalahnya adalah menemukan hewan yang mampu dan mau polisi penghuni asrama. Sesuatu yang besar dan vegetarian, saya pikir gajah bisa melakukan pekerjaan.
Saya rasa pasukan penjaga perdamaian PBB adalah gajah di dunia nyata, mungkin tidak ideal tapi yang terbaik yang kita miliki.
Saran lain untuk peran gajah?
"... Tubuh kecil terbang pulang dalam bit terbakar ..." WOW, Matt, WOW!
Yep, that's one more reason to hate Jews–because OUR terrorists are far more effective than YOUR terrorists–and while the Irish terrorists took 2oo years to NOT get what they wanted, it took the Jews 2 years to get a state which is a monument to the spirit of the Jews and Humanity everywhere, for all time!
How it must burn, Matt! Oh Ya! Jews do Violence, alright!
“three foxes and a chicken voting on what to have for dinner isn't democracy…. Goldstone has deliberately and cynically misrepresented events to pacify a violent majority.”
Perfect. Terima kasih.
This is very well said Chris.
Alan L, anda salah mengerti beberapa fundamental.
Ide Anda bahwa "Pertanyaan Yahudi Eropa 'itu' diekspor ke Timur Tengah 'benar-benar pemandangan make-up dari penduduk Israel, yang mencakup jutaan orang Yahudi dari negara-negara Timur Tengah dan dari Afrika. Penekanan Anda, dalam usaha untuk membangun kasus Anda, di Ashkenazim menghadap ke Sephardim dan Mizrahim. Anda juga mengabaikan asal-usul orang Yahudi yang bukan 'bangsa Eropa' tapi orang-orang Timur Tengah, akan kembali ribuan tahun.
Kau bicara tentang 'berapa banyak orang yang akan masih hidup hari ini atau berjalan tanpa bantuan yang sekarang telah secara permanen cacat atau dibunuh', namun Anda mengkritik 'dinding' yang telah secara dramatis mengurangi jumlah pemboman bunuh diri di Israel. Http://www. Kendala mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism- + + ke + Perdamaian / Palestina + teror + sejak 2.000 / Bunuh Diri + dan + lain + Bom + Serangan + di + israel + Since.htm Apa alternatif untuk 'dinding 'jika Anda tidak ingin itu? Israel telah menghadapi kenyataan dan mengambil keputusan-keputusan sulit, tidak dapat bersembunyi di balik konsep-konsep yang aneh dari sebuah negara Yahudi di Eropa dari semua tempat, atau mimpi tentang 'satu negara federal', (yang bahagia mengabaikan tanpa henti-menyatakan tujuan dari Palestina untuk menghancurkan negara Yahudi dan orang-orangnya).
Apakah tindakan militer selalu merupakan "kejahatan"? Apakah Anda menggambarkan Sekutu yang melawan Hitler sebagai "penjahat harus dilakukan untuk menjawab atas kejahatan mereka"? Tentu saja tidak, kadang-kadang dibenarkan dan perlu. Jarang lebih lagi dalam sejarah daripada dalam kasus Israel (dan jarang pernahkah telah dilakukan lebih manusiawi).
Matt, selektif Anda kutipan dari Irgun dan salah informasi tentang Deir Yassin, dan Anda yang efektif dekade excusal Arab terorisme, memang menegaskan bahwa kepala lebih bijaksana daripada Anda diperlukan.
Sekali lagi, yah kata Chris.
Nick, Anda pikir PBB adalah "gajah"?
Sulit untuk mengetahui bagaimana untuk merespons jika Anda berpikir bahwa. Saya sarankan Anda menonton video yang diposting Chris lebih tinggi, bukan bayi satu, tapi PBB Watch satu, menjelaskan mengapa PBB benar tidak dipercaya oleh "ayam".
Seperti yang saya katakan di Facebook ...
Aku tidak akan menggambarkan penciptaan Israel dengan Yahudi tidak menyebutkan terorisme atau deklarasi sepihak kenegaraan, sama seperti aku tidak akan menghilangkan terorisme Arab atau AHC oposisi terhadap solusi dua negara. Dan aku tidak akan menggambarkan daerah sebagai "jarang penduduknya" sebagai pembenaran untuk pendudukan samar ketika hampir satu juta orang Arab yang mengungsi dari tempat tinggal keluarga mereka selama berabad-abad.
Tapi sebagian besar dari semua, saya tidak akan membungkuk untuk memanggil PBB anti-Yahudi hanya karena tidak sesuai dengan pandangan saya tentang bagaimana Israel harus diperlakukan. Ini adalah sebesar anti-Semit untuk bersikap kritis terhadap kebijakan pertahanan Israel seperti yang rasis untuk bersikap kritis terhadap reformasi kesehatan Obama.
Well done, Chris, thanks!
Orang-orang Arab bahkan tidak peduli atau menolong orang-orang mereka sendiri, termasuk "Palestina": "The 21 negara-negara Arab yang bisa dengan mudah menyerap 650.000 asli pengungsi Palestina pada tahun 1948, tapi menolak untuk melakukannya, meskipun mereka tanah gabungan massa adalah 700 kali lebih besar daripada yang dimiliki oleh Israel. Sebaliknya, penduduk Yahudi dari negara baru hanya 600.000, namun israel rela menyerap sejumlah 820.000 pengungsi Yahudi dari Eropa. "Kutip oleh Randall Price. Tidak yakin apakah angka-angka sudah benar. Juga, bahkan tidak disebutkan adalah Yahudi hampir satu juta pengungsi dari negara-negara Arab yang pada tahun 1948 diusir dari rumah mereka oleh orang-orang Arab telah dirampok dari segala sesuatu dan yang menyambut untuk pulang ke Israel. Orang-orang Arab dan kroni-kroninya mereka hanya mengabadikan dan menggunakan "Palestina" isu untuk demonize, deligitimize dan berusaha untuk menghancurkan Israel. Contoh lain: saya sepupu Israel sebelumnya telah mendirikan sebuah pabrik tekstil kualitas tinggi bagi orang Arab di Gaza. PLO (ini sebelum Hamas) mengancam dan menyerang para pekerja Arab dan manajemen sampai pabrik terpaksa ditutup. PLO tidak ingin ada kemajuan ekonomi yang mungkin bermanfaat bagi orang-orang mereka sendiri. Mereka ingin 'Palestina "untuk tetap menjadi kasus keranjang ekonomi anti-Israel untuk maksud propaganda. Hanya mereka Tujuannya adalah untuk menghancurkan Israel.
@ Doogie, terima kasih. Untuk menjaga keseimbangan itu mungkin patut juga menyebutkan bahwa negara-negara Arab seperti Irak, Mesir dan Libia keras dikeluarkan sekitar 800.000 orang Yahudi antara 1948-1950, dalam "pembalasan" untuk penciptaan PBB Israel. Saya belum melihat adanya bukti kuat yang menunjukkan bahwa orang-orang Arab Israel diusir dengan cara yang sama, tapi aku setuju beberapa orang Arab yang terlantar dan banyak orang lain merasa bahwa mereka tidak punya pilihan selain pergi. Pasti sangat menakutkan dan traumatis bagi kedua belah pihak.
Masih ada lebih dari satu juta orang Arab Israel tinggal di Israel, dan mereka memilih untuk tinggal dan menjadi bagian dari masyarakat di sana. Mereka tidak memiliki hak yang sama dengan orang-orang Yahudi, tetapi mereka mempunyai lebih banyak hak daripada yang ada di salah satu dari negara-negara Arab sekitarnya. Ada Arab anggota Knesset (Parliamment demokrasi). Saya pikir lebih bisa dilakukan.
Salah satu titik kunci menonjol bagi saya. Israel - negara miskin pada waktu itu - menawarkan sebuah rumah untuk SEMUA pengungsi Yahudi dari negara-negara Arab tetangga, serta SEMUA pengungsi Yahudi dari Holocaust. Untuk koin ungkapan, mereka mengambil lagu yang sedih dan membuatnya lebih baik. Mereka benar-benar dibangun kembali Yerusalem. Sebaliknya, negara-negara Arab kaya menolak untuk memberikan rumah bagi pengungsi Arab dari Israel, meninggalkan mereka malah menjadi fotogenik korban untuk tujuan mereka. Itu menjijikkan saya, terus terang. Negara-negara Arab dengan GDP gabungan ratusan miliar dolar dapat dengan mudah mampu berbuat lebih banyak untuk membantu orang-orang Arab, tetapi tidak cocok bagi mereka. Ini adalah bagian yang sulit bagi kebanyakan dari kita untuk memahami, tetapi bukti yang jelas.
Satu-satunya mengeluh bahwa saya akan dengan artikel ini adalah bahwa tidak ada menyebutkan situasi pengungsi Yahudi diciptakan oleh keberangkatan paksa dari Mizrahim. Tentu saja, Israel mampu menyerap pengungsi tetapi penderitaan mereka sering diabaikan dan / atau diabaikan. Juga, orang sepertinya mudah lupa bahwa selalu ada kehadiran Yahudi di atas tanah, keluarga suamiku termasuk. Itu mungkin jauh lebih kecil daripada di titik lain dalam sejarah, tetapi Anda tidak dapat menyangkal keberadaan mereka.
Secara keseluruhan, artikel yang sangat baik, saya mengagumi keberanian Anda! Tapi, sayangnya, saya tidak punya solusi untuk masalah yang kita hadapi. Aku dibesarkan di Irlandia Utara dan meskipun 'perdamaian' yang kita miliki, perang di jalan-jalan masih sangat banyak efek. Mungkin itu hanya di alam kita untuk menghancurkan diri kita sendiri ...
Shabbat Shalom & Shana Tova!
Ditulis dengan baik dan berani dari kalian Chris, thanks!
Anda manipulatif Zionis Basher PBB. Aku yakin setiap uang yang anda tidak pernah untuk PBB pernah ke Dewan Keamanan dan hanya orang-orang mengisap dengan LIES.
Uang? Bagaimana sekitar £ 50?
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=1434897&id=720452384
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=1434890&id=720452384
Anda dapat membuat cek terutang ke Federasi Zionis!
Aku merasa ini benar posting dalam hatiku. Tempat lebih daripada dalam pembedahan penurunan Perserikatan Bangsa-Bangsa dari mimpi yang mengagumkan menjadi bangkrut secara moral-berantakan yang tidak proporsional mammothly kutukan terhadap Israel memberikan gratis lewat pintu belakang asli pelanggar hak asasi manusia dan tiran di seluruh dunia termasuk setiap benua. Ini adalah apa yang Anda Tonton video PBB diilustrasikan dengan baik dan IMHO ini merupakan alasan mengapa seluruh dunia harus perhatikan karena Israel sedang digunakan sebagai mengilap mengkilap untuk mengalihkan perhatian sementara mengabaikan PBB asli pelanggaran hak asasi manusia di tempat lain. Mengapa Israel yang digunakan? Jawaban yang mudah adalah anti Semitisme, dan ya yang sering terjadi. Juga kita tidak proporsional kuat untuk ukuran dan kita hanya akan menjadi kekuatan yang lebih kuat. Yah kau tahu kita tidak ingin orang-orang Yahudi mengambil alih dunia kita?! Ada juga elemen lain itu yang merupakan malas kesetaraan moral yang tidak melihat perbedaan dalam teror di satu sisi dan membela diri orang lain karena butuh waktu untuk belajar, tetapi kebanyakan orang tidak cukup peduli. Setiap orang normal akan memahami dengan baik alasan yang disebut dinding dan mendorong kembali roket kalau itu mereka dalam jalur tembak atau punya hati untuk berempati? Kematian adalah alternatif kami. Kami lebih suka hidup dan akan dihukum daripada mati dengan roket dan pelaku bom bunuh diri. Dalam Nazi waktu kami mati dalam jutaan dan kali ini kita tidak ingin mati, maaf. Berapa banyak roket ditembakkan ke Israel dari sebelum Operasi Lead Pemain tanggapan? Itu adalah 12.000. Semua dari kita di sini mengenal seseorang yang meninggal jadi mungkin sudut pandang kita berbeda dengan mereka yang berbicara dalam teori. Tentu saja kita memukul kembali dan mungkin terlalu keras aku tidak tahu, tapi seperti yang Anda katakan apa adalah alternatif yang diusulkan oleh pembenci? Aku tidak pernah mendengar proposal hanya keinginan. Begitu banyak orang yang bodoh, itu adalah rasa malu.
Yasher Koach.
Thanks Chris, dan saya berharap Anda mendapatkan uang Anda!
Saya harus mengatakan bahwa saya tetap tidak setuju dengan Anda tentang "anti Semitisme" PBB, dan saya tidak berpikir itu membantu siapa pun untuk mengabaikan temuan-temuan serius Goldstone sebagai hasil dari prasangka. Penembakan mesjid selama doa ditemukan menjadi kebijakan yang disengaja IDF. Jika Israel tidak ingin diperlakukan sama dengan teroris itu perlu menghentikan berperilaku sama dengan teroris.
Doogie, masjid berhenti menjadi off-batas ketika teroris saham mereka dengan api tersebut amunisi dan amunisi dari mereka.
Aku mengangguk ke pengetahuan dan tunduk kepada kekuatan Anda.
Teman saya Doogie, Anda bingung perilaku dan niat. Dua pria bisa berjalan jalan dan jika seseorang bermaksud membunuh orang dan yang lain untuk menyelamatkan seseorang, ini sebenarnya jalan yang berbeda.
Untuk Anda yang mengkritik Israel:
Silakan bayangkan dalam situasi di mana kita masuk Please aku mohon itu di antara kamu, jika sebuah roket ini ditujukan untuk rumah Anda sekarang saat ini dan katakan apa rasanya hidup dengan rasa takut dengan membenci musuh Anda untuk kredo ? Seorang pembom bunuh diri dapat membunuh Anda tanpa peringatan, atau lebih buruk anak Anda mungkin pernah pulang dari TK. Semua di Israel tahu keluarga anak-anak tanpa orangtua dan orangtua tanpa anak. Kami mengambil giliran kita di IDF maka anda mengkritik kami untuk menembak kembali ketika kejahatan Hamas menembakkan roket dari di sekolah-sekolah, rumah sakit, dan masjid. They do it that way so people that are like you are thinking bad thoughts of us but I hate it that you are so bad informed you think you're better than us.
@Ariadne, and when you react by killing innocents at prayer, no matter the provocation, you become no more than terrorists yourselves. We as civilised people should not condone any government which does that.
@ Rabbi Sam, the UN report says that it was the IDF's intent to kill those people in exactly the way they did, and lists other instances of clear intent. To quote a banner from one of the Stop the War marches I was on in Edinburgh a few years back, and if you'll excuse the language: “Bombing for Peace is like Fucking for Virginity”.
Thank you Chris, this is very good to read.
My parents live in Sderot, for those who don't know it's an area that experienced daily rocket bombardment from Hamas. My parents watched the local children from Sderot pass on the route to school and we all knew they could not be protected from the rockets that always came every day. Hamas target was children. The people who condemn Operation Cast Lead, our response after 12,000 rockets were fired at us, tell me something please. Where were you when our children were being fired on? Where was the UN then?
I thank Gd that some in England stand up for what is right.
THERE WAS NO WAR MORE JUSTIFIED IN HISTORY THAN THE GAZA WAR. IF YOU WERE HERE, YOU WOULD KNOW.
Nice to be in Edinburgh where such things are theoretical and you can march without fear.
I live in London where many did similar.
The naivety is staggering.
Shmuel, many thanks for an articulate response to some of my points. It is refreshing when discussing an issue such as this to be able to engage in a discussion with someone unconstrained by emotionally-laden invective.
First, if I may, a brief aside to Noa: please understand Noa, that nations are built on symbols and myths – myths of heroes, myths of Golden Ages, myths of suffering and victimhood, myths of manifest destiny etc. The one you cite – national martyrdom – is particularly effectively deployed to bolster Israeli Jewish national identity given that there is a vast, oft-discussed millenia-long recorded history of unjust Jewish suffering (Babylonian capitivity, slavery in Egypt, Roman colonisation, Mediaeval pogroms in Europe, European anti-semitic movements in the 19th century, wholesale slaughter of Jews by the Soviet Union and the Third Reich etc.). However, since 1948, the Palestinians (then, a very young nation) have been deploying the same myth to build their own nation and so today all that Israeli anti-civilian military response to criminal Palestinian bomb and rocket attacks will achieve (regardless of their justification in terms of 'no more victimhood') is to reinforce the Palestinian nation myth of martyrdom and make the Palestinian national mythos stronger. Regrettably, that will empower the Palestinian belligerents. Military action against civilians lengthens rather than shortens the road to peace. (Of course, not everyone actually wants peace, but it would be nice to think that we all did).
Furthermore, you write about “the lazy moral equivalence that doesn't see differences in terror on one side and self-defence of others.” Perhaps a civilian murder is just a civilian murder, whoever commits the crime and no matter what has gone before?
Back to Shmuel:
> Alan L, you misunderstand a few fundamentals.
Terima kasih. I am here to explore ideas and learn, not to go to any lengths to prove that I am right.
> Your idea that the 'European Jewish Question' was 'exported
> to the Middle East' completely overlooks the make-up of the
> Israeli population, which includes millions of Jewish people
> from Middle Eastern countries and from Africa. Your
> emphasis, in trying to construct your case, on Ashkenazim
> overlooks the Sephardim and Mizrahim.
You are right on both counts. But are you saying that the modern State of Israel would have come into existence anyway, even if the Ashkenazim had been happily integrated into the Prussian, Austrian and Romanov Empires?
> You also ignore the origins of the Jews who are not
> a 'European nation' but a Middle Eastern people, going back
> millennia.
Secara teknis, ya. But then lots of English people are apparently from the south of Denmark (or the north of Spain, depending on who you read), the Hungarians are from Central Asia, the Germans are from the Black Sea Region and ultimately we're all from the Rift Valley. However we do generally accept that the English are from the British Isles and the Germans and Hungarians are from Germany and Hungary. So I think it's fair to maintain that the pre-1948 Mediterranean Sephardim and (especially) the Mitteleuropa Ashkenazim are Europeans, from Europe.
> You talk of 'how many people would have been alive today or
> walking unaided who have now been permanently maimed or
> murdered', yet you criticise 'the wall' which has dramatically
> reduced the number of suicide bombings in Israel.
I accept that physical frontiers (the demilitarised zone in Korea, the Green Line in Cyprus, the Peace Lines in Belfast) are unfortunate, but sometimes necessary practical measures in order to minimise violence between two combative parties. My concern is less with the wall itself and more with the fact that it was not built along the legally designated demarcation line – a decision which looked like a crude land-grab. Also, unless I am mistaken, it was a unilateral, rather than a bilateral project. Is this correct?
> it cannot hide behind [...] a dream about 'a single federal
> state', (which blissfully ignores the endlessly-declared aims of
> the Palestinians to destroy the Jewish state and its people).
And what of all the many Palestinians who harbour no such wishes? And of all the many Israeli Jews who value peace more than their taxes subsidising civilian murder?
> Is military action always a “crime”?
Against other voluntary combatants, no. Against non-voluntary draftees and civilians, yes. Always. I think so at any rate. Others will differ (though perhaps less so when their relatives are directly involved).
> Would you describe the Allies who fought Hitler as “criminals
> should be made to answer for their crimes”? Of course not, it is
> sometimes justified and necessary.
Huh?!! I hope you don't believe this, Shmuel. First of all, it is not the case that Churchill, Roosevelt & Stalin fought Hitler, Mussolini and Tojo. Closer to the truth is that certain people who had been brought up and educated to subscribe to the idea that they were of British ethno-nationality were ordered to and did fight and kill others who similarly subscribed to the idea that they were of German ethno-nationality. This is pretty insane by any measure. Secondly, when it comes to combat-willing fighters murdering combat-unwilling civilians such as in the Dresden firestorm, the atom bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki… in what terms might these not be considered crimes on a vast scale? Do you genuinely think it is acceptable for anyone but a paid, professional volunteer soldier to be involved in any armed conflict whatsoever?
There is no humane or justified killing of non-combatants by combatants. It is only in the interest of warmongers to persuade their respective electorates that there is. That is, after all, how they acquire and maintain power.
On the issue of Goldstone, please pay attention to what he was ordered to do by UN Resolution S-9/1. His job was unequivocally “to investigate all violations of international human rights law and international humanitarian law by the occupying Power, Israel, against the Palestinian people throughout the Occupied Palestinian Territory, particularly in the occupied Gaza Strip, due to the current aggression.”.
If you understand international law as Goldstone clearly does as a professor of the subject then you can see he was legally bound to be biased in his report even before he started his investigation!!!
Couldn't have put it better myself, Chris, which is why you've written this amazing blog post…and I haven't!! Constructive, clear and well considered comments such as yours are vital amidst the polluted trash coming out of most media outlets, which is ultimately a feeble cover for anti-semitism and anti-Zionism!
@Avi – I have great sympathy for your parents and for all of the victims of the bombings. But Sderat is not in Israel, is it? At least not the Israel of the UN mandate. It was built on the site of Najd, in Gaza, after that village was destroyed and occupied by Israeli forces during the Arab-Israel war in 1948. How did your parents end up living in an illegally occupied part of Gaza? When people decry the use of human shields, do they not also decry the Israeli use of illegal settlements, which amount to precisely the same thing?
It is wrong that the innocent people in Sderot should come under rocket attack from Hamas; but it was wrong that it should have been seized in the first place too.
@Shmuel – if you believe only people who live in Israel are entitle to an opinion about it then why do you not condemn this whole article? Or is it only if people don't live there *and* happen to disagree with you?
@Adam M – I can't see any bias there, I can only see focus. The resolution was focused on Israel as the occupying power. It's certainly no surprise that Goldstone didn't report on Palestinian atrocities, since he had no mandate to do so as you say. But that doesn't constitute bias.
I'm not Jewish or Israeli but I am a psychologist and this interests me. When it comes to people like Doogie, Alan, Matt and the like, I wonder how many times someone would have to knock them over before they stood up for themselves? Once? Ten times? Ten thousand times? Or would they just let themselves be abused?????
It's easy to say others shouldn't hit back but that's not real is it? How about making the theoretical practical, which I thought was the strength of this whole article. You guys need to associate with the idea that it isn't abstract for the people over there. The guy who said it's easy to march in Edinburgh/London is totally right.
Doogie:
If you don't know where Sderot is, then you really aren't nearly as up on the facts as you hold yourself out to be. Not only is Sderot within the '48 Armistice borders, it is also primarily populated with Jews who were forced to flee Morocco — their home for centuries or longer — where they were compelled to live under the dhimmi laws — a system of head taxes and other forms of discrimination.
As for the Occupied Territories, Israel offered their return shortly after the war in which they were won, in exchange for recognizing Israel's right to exist, but the idiot countries of the Arab League issued their famous “three nos” declaration from Khartoum. Instead, they pursued war through terror campaigns, targeting Jews living in places as far distant as Argentina and attempted to destabilize neighbouring Lebanon and Jordan. In the 1990s, they were offered the return of virually all of the occupied territories, and Arafat's response was to pump up the hostility via Palestinian media, mosques and schools and making public shows out of paying blood money to the surviving kith and kin of suicide terrorists. If the Palestinians and Arab citizens were truly as aggrieved as you believe, this incitement and bribery would not be necessary. In fact, a recent Pew poll found that 60%+ of Israel's Arab citzens would rather remain citizens of Israel than live under the PA or any other Arab government in the region. Life is, indeed difficult for Arab Israelis, but that's due to 40+ years of terror operations and not a state that practices systemic apartheid.
Excuse me Doogie but my parents don't want your smuggish sympathy and neither the lies you bolted on. Sderot (spell it right please) is on the green line 1km from Gaza, that is why the rockets reach there but the city is definitely NOT in Gaza (or West Bank before you get confused about that now). The Najd villagers you ignorantly talk of, approximately 620 people, were expelled in May 1948, that is before Israel was declared a state. Oh I forgot it doesn't matter about the facts. By the way Sderot is a city of thousands of people now and 35% are under 21. You are obviously a man who thinks he is clever but the misinformation you spread on these sites can incite hate and cost lives. Read a book please.
And now we're into personal invective and anger, what a waste of time that is.
Lynne, Avi – Najd was a village in Gaza, and Sderot is now a city in Gaza, however much you might want to pretend otherwise. Gaza stretches all the way up beyond Ashkelon. What you like to call Gaza now is actually the so-called Gaza strip, the part of Gaza not seized by Israel during the 1948 war. Such geographical and cultural revisionism dogs the history of the Middle East, to the detriment of honest debate.
I have no wish to incite any hate, and I don't think honestly held and respectfully expressed opinion should be criticised with that slur just because a disagreement is intense. I suspect that that attack, like the one which suggested that commenting from a distance is naive, are just the venting of frustration that others do not share your deep convictions. Well I don't.
Well articulated and factual Chris. I would only like to make a comment about the UN. My suspicions are that the UN generosity** in 1947 vote was that no one expected Israel to survive more than a year. I believe they knew, and were waiting for the Arab response, and possibly aided the Arabs in war preparations.
The Brits, for example, armed the Arabs, then stood aside while they massacred unarmed Jews. Just in case someone wants to bring it up, I don't care to hear anything abour Deir Yassin. If you read history, not the revised edition, Deir Yassin was a terrorist sanctuary in 48, and therefore made itself into a legitimate target. Then, as now, the terrorists burrowed in with the civilians, and then cried about civilian casualties. These same terrorists were massacring Jewish civilians.
**Generosity – the UN modified the original Israeli homeland which was intended to include all of what is now called Jordan.
Chris, your analysis is brilliant, your reasoning “True”. Of course you know that both Jew and Arab are cousins, heirs of Abraham. Yet, Israel had to fight and still has to fight to protect itself from being swallowed by her hostile cousins. Her Will to Fight and Endure is a hallmark of Israeli Resolve to survive…a very hard-won, hard-fought ongoing struggle.
Terrific piece Chris.
What amuses me about people like Doogie here -and there are a lot of them about-is that they seem to think that they have a monopoly on deciding when history starts and finishes.
'Such geographical and cultural revisionism dogs the history of the Middle East, to the detriment of honest debate.'
Indeed, so let's talk about the Jewish villages in the Gaza strip before 1948 which had to be abandoned when Egypt invaded during the War of Independence.
And why stop there? Shall we discuss the implications of the fact that there is an 8th century synagogue near the port of modern-day Gaza city? That, of course, is before Islam even existed.
If you want to play the historical card, Doogie, then there are better people to play it with than Israelis: we have long, long memories!
IsraeliNurse, I could not agree with you more.
I don't understand how so many are either unaware and/or choose to ignore the fact that Israel and the 'disputed territories' have always maintained a Jewish presence. As for Gaza, I always thought people knew it had been a Jewish stronghold. My husband's family, whom were once referred to as Palestinian Jews, talk of wonderful holidays spent in Gaza…before 1948 of course!
I read in the paper today that Ahmadinejad wants the world to stand against the 'Zionist Entity' because it's very existence is based on the myth of the Shoah. Therefore denying the suffering of those 6 million Jews among many other groups, but also denying the entire history of the Jews and their ties to the land. I could even go so far that he denies what it says in his own holy book but, perhaps he's not even worth discussing.
I suppose if you tell a lie enough times, people will start to believe it. Ignorance is not bliss…
Israelinurse – I completely agree the fault is on both sides. Your argument appears to be that two wrongs make a right. That is one of the fundamental problems with this debate. Just as Palestinian suicide bombers justify their unjustifiable acts of barbarism by pointing at unjustifiable Israeli barbarism, so unjustifiable Israeli revisionism is apparently justified by unjustifiable Arab revisionism.
When I point out one fault, you seem to hear me justifying another. I did not do so. I make no apologies for pointing out faults on the Israeli side on an article which was so completely one-sided in its support for the Israeli side.
There is clear evidence, collated by independent monitors and reported by the UN, that Israel has committed atrocities against the Palestinian people. There is also clear evidence, collated by independent monitors and reported widely by governments all over the world, that Hamas and other Palestinian organisations have committed atrocities against the Israeli people.
If you are genuinely concerned to end this horror, the last thing you need to do is to pretend that one of these reports is due to “anti-semitism”. It isn't. It's factual.
@ Doogie – For the UN to single out the Jewish state for criticism and censure, while turning a blinded eye to genuine and undisputed human rights abuses in many other countries, including Zimbabwe, Darfur and Tibet, is, in my opinion, a symbolic invocation of prejudice against the Jewish people: an act of blatant and inexcusable antisemitism.
If you cannot see the problem, perhaps you are part of the problem.
The Goldstone report is a classic example of multi-layered spin. Most people think they are sophisticated enough to see through spin, and that's part of the spin. The most effective politicians are the ones that embed ideas using fuzzy and junko logic. By flattering our self-image, it's easy to make us think we think things. We even have the sense of having discovered these things as our own ideas. But that's like saying a child who completes a dot the dot puzzle is a creative artist; adults know that the picture was embedded in advance.
Consider a very basic – and therefore easy to unpack – example. As Adam M noted earlier, Goldstone was mandated “to investigate all violations of international human rights law and international humanitarian law by the occupying Power, Israel, against the Palestinian people throughout the Occupied Palestinian Territory, particularly in the occupied Gaza Strip, due to the current aggression”. That was his legal obligation. However, in the introduction to his report he gave a different account, claiming he was asked “to investigate all violations of international human rights law and international humanitarian law that might have been committed at any time in the context of the military operations that were conducted in Gaza”. Not all the words are different, but the meaning is entirely different.
He did what he was asked to do, but his introduction constructs the false impression that he investigated the bigger picture and found most fault with Israel. The semantically dense phrase “Occupying Power” was also moved from the mandate to the report title – where it will feel to most people like it's a conclusion of the report.
All this is only one dot – not particularly meaningful in itself – but when combined with hundreds of other dots, strategically placed, it creates an ugly picture. It's the kind of picture that leads people to march through London – or Edinburgh – holding “we're all Hezbollah now” banners. It's the kind of picture that leads to people being marched to death camps. We should be better than that.
I can't speak for any commentators here but I can say that the people whom I have talked with about the Middle East, ( face to face I might add! ) seem to think that anti-semitism begins and ends with the Nazis and the Holocaust. They will make statements like; ” I go on anti-Nazi demos so I can't be anti-semitic”, or ” I have Jewish friends so how could I possibly be anti-semitic?” or, the classic ” I'm not anti-semitic, I'm just anti-zionist “. Perhaps the best one I've heard lately is that by calling Israel's critics 'anti-semitic' is the SAME as calling President Obama's critics racist. I find it thoroughly interesting that the first man to come to Obama's defence when he was called a liar by a member of congress was Jimmy Carter, say no more…
Anti-semitism has done and will continue to rear it's ugly head in many forms. It's been around for millennia and it certainly wasn't something created by the author of Meine Kampf. It can be as subtle as a piece published on CiF or something altogether larger like The Goldstone Report. Let's not forget this report was issued on behalf of the UNHRC, a council with members from countries with fantastic records on human rights; Saudi Arabia, Libya, Zimbabwe….
These countries also have many ideals in common when it comes to the Jews and Israel, there's no point in pretending that they don't.
I know Israel well, I have Israeli family and I also have Israeli Arab friends. Israel is not a perfect country, they make mistakes just like EVERY other nation. The difference with Israel is that they are constantly under attack, physically and verbally. To continually single out Israel for condemnation while a blind eye is turned towards the most severe human crises well, if there isn't anti-semitism in that, then I don't know what it is. If Cuba were firing rockets into the USA on a daily basis for 8+ years, well, do you think they would wait that long to respond? What would the USA deem to be a proportionate response?
I also wonder if all the armchair warriors who come out screaming 'stolen land' and 'occupation' every time Israel is mentioned in the press, do they do the same thing when the United States of America is mentioned? How about Australia? South Africa? Central and South America? Ireland? Why stop at boycotting produce from Israel and the 'illegal settlements'? Let's boycott American products too…
- Waiting for the time when Earth shall be as one!
Hmm. Lot of straw man arguments here. But the debate remains civil which is by far the most important thing. I have a side-question to everyone about the term “anti-semitic”. I have always understood it to be a term of ethnic prejudice – a term which describes the ideology of being anti-Jewish, anti-Judaic, anti-Jew. Rather abhorrent, I hope we all agree. (Indeed, I hope we all agree that it's as deeply unpleasant as being anti-Persian, anti-Arab, anti-Slavic, anti-Japanese or anything else). Can I ask if there is anyone here who understands it to mean “opposing the policies of the post-1948 Israeli state” ?
Because these really are two very different concepts and I for one think it's (always) important to distinguish between (for example) Russians and Bolsheviks, Germans and Nazis, Chinese and CPCers, Americans and PNACers etc.
If “anti-Semitic” does in fact also include the second thing, then I'll stand corrected and in good grace reconsider my position that militaristic policies which target civilians are criminal, regardless of which administration executes the policy. The last thing I want (genuinely) is to be justifiably accused of anti-semitism. But if it does not, please lets not go around saying things like “opposing policy in Tel Aviv is anti-Semitic” because that's clearly a bit daft and doesn't help.
I look forward to answers from anyone who has time to answer this side-question. Thanks in advance.
To Alan ——>Your post was to demonstrate what a straw man argument is?
I have learnt a lot from reading this so thanks to all sides
Alan,
Your question can be answered with a simple test: have Jewish critics of Israel been accused of being anti-Semitic? The answer is decidedly yes, even Goldstone has been accused, though as an ardent Zionist and a respected jurrist the accusations against him are less mainstream than they are against others, such as Norman Finkelstein or Ilan Halevei, where they are almost unanimous in the mainstream. Just google “self-hating Jews” ans see what comes up.
Chris,
What does Israel's geographic size have to do with its responsibility to safeguard human rights, even only looking at the Israeli side did Cast Lead lead to more or less violent deaths, and what right does Israel have to be an ethnic state that officialy discriminates against people of certain demographic groups?
To Alan L,
If you're going to define the term 'anti-semitic' etymologically, then it is a prejudice against all Semitic peoples, not only the Jews. As I am sure you are well aware, the Jews have been singled out consistently for the most horrendous persecution, for reasons which are beyond the understanding of our simple brains so… in time the term has come to mean something more specific. It's highly probable that the term takes on a slightly different term to different people. Language evolves, what can you do about it?
I don't however believe that anyone would understand it to mean “opposing the policies of the post-1948 Israeli state” . I do however believe that there is more than a touch of anti-semitism ( if we take the understanding of the term to mean 'anti-Jew' ) in people opposing the sovereignty and very existence of an Israeli state.
As for ” militaristic policies which target civilians “, this is not something I would tolerate in any way, shape or form. Civilian casualties and death will always be an outcome of any war. If Israel are guilty of the intentional targeting of civilians then somebody should be held accountable. Just as heads should roll in Gaza for the continued targeting of civilians in Israel, in fact, the heads of Hamas should roll for how they treat their own people. But, I stand by Israel's right to defend herself and her citizens.
I was brought up in Northern Ireland. I know of many horrible events that involved the British army targeting civilians, most of these the general British public probably don't even know about. I've also had the misfortune to meet civilians who deliberately targeted soldiers in the most horrific ways, not to mention civilians who target civilians. It was a nasty situation but even I can see that sometimes the military had to act for the greater good. We still have a military presence here but I don't see the world up in arms about the 'occupation' here. Just to be clear, I am in no way comparing the trouble Israel faces to the situation that we have in Ireland!
All in all, I don't think all criticism of Israel stems from anti-semitism, it also comes from ignorance and misinformation. And yes, at times criticism is just ( I'm critical of Israel for the sheer volume of paperwork I have to fill out for my daughter's birth registration and passport…) but, no nation is perfect. I just think the world, and in particular, the UN, should shift their focus from Israel to the countries and people that are living in the most dire and most severe situations.
To young_activist,
Israel has the right to exist as a Jewish State just as Saudi Arabia has the right to exist as an Islamic State. Saudi Arabia and many other Islamic states officialy discriminate against people of certain demographic groups. Women generally have no rights at all in Saudi Arabia, Jews and Christians are expected to live in a state of 'dhimmitude' and if you're homosexual, well…I need say no more. I have Israeli Arab friends who love the freedom of living in Israel, they do not feel 'officially' discriminated against, in fact, they feel 'officially' happy. I also know of an Arab lady who was over the moon because not only is she allowed to drive in Israel, but also because she is allowed to work as a bus driver. The security situation means EVERYONE is suspicious, fairskinned Arab, darkskinned Jew alike.
@ Chris – You and others keep returning to the same point, I think, and I consider it moot. You keep referring to the treatment of Israel in comparison to the treatment of others – whether they be other countries guilty of abuses, or other organisations guilty of terrorist acts.
The existence of another entity carrying out acts as bad as, or worse than, the first, changes nothing with regard to the culpability of the first for any acts it has carried out.
You see the UN as anti-semitic because you consider Israel's actions to be less heinous than the actions of states which have not been censured by the UN. But think of it this way: if the UN tomorrow condemned Zimbabwean atrocities, Darfur slaughters and Tibet oppression, would that change anything in fact about the UN's view of Israel? I would suggest not. These are independent events.
As for your join the dots metaphor, I think anyone could find such dots to support any point of view. I think you find them because of your pre-existing opinion, not the other way around. And I think there is probably a corner of the internet where the precise same documents are revealing completely different dots to people on the opposite side of the argument to you, and they are feeling as vindicated as you are.
@Ruth – I'm fascinated by the Carter reference about Obama and your exhortation to “say no more”. I've already expressed the opinion that it is as much anti-semitic to be critical of Israeli defence policy as it is racist to be critical of Obama's health reforms. Can you make your argument against this more explicit for me? I don't follow it.
You also seem to be the most complete exponent of the theory that two wrongs make a right, and I'd like to comment on the final instance of this in your later comment. You say “Israel has the right to exist as a Jewish State just as Saudi Arabia has the right to exist as an Islamic State.” Then you go on list the horrors of discrimination in an Islamic state while justifying the lesser discrimination of the Jewish state. Genuinely for me this sounds like the man who boasts that he only beat his wife, while his neighbour murdered his. No matter what his neighbour did, he beat his wife.
Personally I think theocracy is a contemptible way to run people's lives, whatever god you claim to do the will of. Since there is no such thing as god, any state which bases any part of its law on what “god” says is ridiculous. Sadly, that covers the majority of states in the world to a greater or lesser degree.
Doogie, I salute your indefatigably.
On the other hand, repeating something does not make it so. Otherwise we'd all chant peace and be done. Nobody here has said that two wrongs make a right. In fact, nobody here who is standing up for Israel seems particularly bothered about being right. That is their strength. Right and wrong are how armchair activists judge complex situations from thousands of miles away; the people who are most directly affected by this tend to think about it on a different plane – one that is infinitely more practical and useful. Because this is about real people more than it is about pixels on the screen.
If the police in Edinburgh began arresting only black people who commit crimes – ignoring or downplaying the crimes of all other races – that would not only be inexcusable racism, it would universally be seen as inexcusable racism.
When the UN censures only Jewish leaders – ignoring or downplaying the crimes of all other races – that too is inexcusable racism.
And when the UN frames Jewish leaders for crimes they didn't commit – while still ignoring or downplaying the real crimes of all other races – that's a toxic evil.
Yes, I keep returning to the same point.
Because if you cannot get that, there's nothing more to be said.
Ah, more references to “armchair activists” as if everyone on the other side of the argument was typing from a command post in the West Bank rather than a couch in Windsor. You'll excuse me if I don't feel disabused by that. I happily acknowledge that I'm sitting in Edinburgh expressing an opinion, and I don't think my location impacts on its validity.
Of course I am over-simplifying the argument by characterising it as two wrongs making a right. Of course “wrong” and “right” are subjective, a point I have already made. But let's be honest here.
You talk about Israel “extending its boundaries outwards” while you describe how its Arab neighbours “invaded”. Perhaps you genuinely can't see the double standard in this, but I'd be surprised. They are descriptions of the same thing, one full of self-justification, the other full of condemnation. And you justify the one by the other. My shorthand for that is two wrongs making a right.
As for your claim that the UN “censures only Jewish leaders – ignoring or downplaying the crimes of all other races”, this is pretty shameful I think. The UN has censured Israel, which is a state, not a race (and not a religion either). Making that connection between state and race as if the two concepts were interchangeable is frighteningly dangerous. It's the same tactic as al-Qaeda uses to stir up hatred among Muslims when he talks about attacks on Islam. It is the language of fundamentalism.
Israel has contravened UN resolutions, and committed what amount to war crimes. Israel has been censured for this. The Jewish people have neither committed nor been censured for such actions. To suggest they have is dangerously inflammatory in my opinion. There are far too many stupid people in the world who will lap up that falsehood as easily as they lapped up “Muslims are terrorists”.
“[...] that connection between state and race as if the two concepts were interchangeable [...]”
I think it cannot be stressed enough that territorial-administrative entities (ie. states) and ethno-national entities (ie. nations) are not the same kind of thing.
The confusion comes in our fuzzy use of the word 'nation' in the English language to sometimes mean 'a political state' when this is actually not what it means. For instance we have the word 'international' which in fact conveys the sense of 'inter-state'. We also have multinational corporations – in fact they are multi-state corporations. Not least, we have a global political talking shop consistently referred to as the United Nations. It would more correctly described, amusingly enough, as the United States.
Jews and Israelis are not the same. We probably all know Jews who are not Israelis. And, as several thread participants indicated higher up, there are not a small number of Israelis who are not Jews.
Dear Doogie,
Firstly, I have NEVER justified Israeli discrimination whilst condemning Saudi discrimination. I am merely commenting on my own experiences in Israel as I have spent enough time there to be able to see for myself that by and large there is not an official policy of discrimination against different ethnic groups. In my experiences, EVERYONE is treated like a suspect but this is the environment that they have been forced to live in. Perhaps you should read my comment again and you will see that it is a response to another's commentator's question of 'what right does Israel have to exist as an ethnic state that officially discriminates against people of certain demographic groups?' By pointing out that Saudi Arabia is an ethnic state that officially discriminates against people of certain demographic groups does not in any way suggest that I justify the actions of Israel nor does it suggest that I believe that if the Saudi's can get away with it then the Israeli's should get away with it too. All my Israeli Arab friends live full and free lives, this is a fact. They also peacefully co-exist with Jews, Christians and many more. I'm sorry that if you think my divulging of this personal information means that I tolerate the discrimination of Arabs/Bedouins and other ethnic groups in other parts of Israel. This is my experience of life in Israel and maybe I have been blessed but it's still a valid part of Middle Eastern life that people should know about.
'You also seem to be the most complete exponent of the theory that two wrongs make a right'. How so? Because I was brought up surrounded by terrorism and military occupation? Because my childhood environment was 'tit for tat'? You could not be further from the truth.An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. Maybe because, in my experience, the British Army sometimes had to act against civilians for the greater good. All life is sacred, but if the saving of many civilian lives comes at the price of a few IRA or LVF members then yes, I am indeed the most complete exponent of the theory that two wrongs make a right. But this is not about Ireland, this is about Israel.
All of us 'armchair warriors' are never going to change the situation out there. We sit here crouched over our keyboards, each one of us convinced that 'I'm right and you're wrong'. At the end of the day, I'm not going to convince you or anyone else of what I know and what I've experienced, nor will you convince me. This kind of debate has it's place, but it's not going to change the world.
As for your question regarding Obama, in my opinion, accusing Israel's critics as anti-semitic is not the same as accusing Obama's critics as racist. I have made no reference to the IDF nor have I made reference to Obama's healthcare reforms. I am talking in general terms, if we're going to get specific then that's an entirely different thing as I don't believe all criticism of Israel is anti-semitic but I do believe a certain amount of criticism against Obama is definitely racially motivated. I have no argument here, just my lowly opinion. And you're fascinated by my Carter remark? Well, this isn't the forum for discussions on Jimmy Carter, I just happen to find him an interesting character.
Anyway, peace out from one armchair warrior to all the others. Goodnight.
@ Doogie
“Since there is no such thing as god”
I don't have proof of the existence of a divine power. Are you being provocative or do you have definitive proof?! I would love to know for sure myself…
[...] Bowen's wrong-headed interpretation, compare it with this eloquent analysis. Don't ask the Jews to offer the Palestinians a bunch of helium love-hearts, or [...]
Alan L
Jewish and Israeli are not the same thing. I'd say that a good percentage of people don't actually realise this fact. Perhaps there is more danger in this than people care to acknowledge.
But, when you have those who are in power of Iran referring to Israel as that 'Zionist Entity', you can't really blame people for becoming confused.
Maybe the spoken word and the power of the pen are the most dangerous weapons of all…
Ruthie, check out Rabbi Yossi Mizrachi at divineinformation.com, video or audio of Torah and Science.
On the subject of Israel, I am unashamedly supportive of Israel, who despite all the problems, has created a vibrant, inclusive state surrounded by some of the most repressive and backward countries in the history of the world.
Here is a book I've enjoyed reading from cover to cover, 'The Boats of Cherbourg'. The best parts were the stories of the individuals who assisted Israel in small ways which allowed Israel to get their missile boats out of Cherbourg to Haifi in time for the Yom Kippur war.
@ Ruth, I appreciate your responses, and I think we're probably more in agreement than we appear. I am happy to acknowledge that Israel has a lot going for it, just as you seem happy to acknowledge that it isn't perfect.
Ref the existence of god – of course one cannot prove a negative, but I say there is no such thing as god with the same assurance with which I say there is no invisible pink unicorn orbiting my desk. I can't prove that, and it would certainly explain why my black pens keep going missing, but I reasonably sure I'm right all the same. Peace out.
[...] by Chris Morris [...]
Jean,
Thank you for the suggestions, I will check them out. I too am supportive of Israel despite everything. I've met so many wonderful people out there, from all faiths and races. I just hope that some day that what I've experienced in the Middle East, will be the experience of every single human life out there.
@ Doogie, I like the idea of an invisible pink unicorn orbiting your desk. If you prove that there is one there , then perhaps you could send one my way
First time here – brilliant post; it expresses the same feelings I have, but in much better words than I ever could!
Chris Morris said he had been to the 'West Bank' area and I assume Israel too Chris? Alan, Doogie, you have visited too?
@Avi, No, I haven't. I hope that meets with your expectations.
But it gets worse. I've never been to South Africa either, but I had the temerity in times gone by to express opinions about apartheid. I've never been to Egypt, but like a true armchair warrior I've banged on about human rights abuses there nonetheless.
I'm off now to plot a map of countries I'm fit to comment on – and to give myself a good slap for my past sins.
A defensive reply is not needed because I only inquired about a fact.
It is easy to imagine “Doogie” in the 30s, don't you think?
Irresponsible Doogie. Irresponsible!
You rely on biased media and think you know better than the people on the ground.
I myself do not know everything so say I don't, then I can learn more.
Quite a subject you've brought up, Chris. I'll only remark that I agree with you and ask if you've read The Case for Israel by Alan Dershowitz (ISBN-10: 0471679526; ISBN-13: 978-0471679523 ). It's excellent.
Caroline, drop the shrill personal invective, it doesn't help. I have never stated that I know better than others, nor that I know everything. Objectivity will not come from the media, nor from people “on the ground”, nor from me, nor from you, nor from anyone posting here.
I'll tell you what I think is “Irresponsible!” Caroline, and that is calling the UN anti-semitic because it has condemned acts of barbarity by the state of Israel. The more you discredit the only organisation in a position to steer a path towards peace, the further away you push peace.
Perhaps one difference between me and some others posting here is that I want this conflict to end in peace, while others want it to end in victory.
Oh Doogie, stop trying to be right. It's painful to read.
James
(Not Jewish, not particularly a fan of Israel)
Avi, thank you for your question. The answer is no – but I would like to very much. One reason I am very curious to visit both Israel and the Palestinian territories is because – you and I never know! – it might even change my the way I think about the Middle East question.
I should point out I am open to having my mind changed by rational argument – though, as you can see from my thoughts above, I am fairly closed to having my mind changed by emotional argument.
Neither am I persuaded by the idea that “ends justify means” because I am afraid that such a philosophy only leads man to unleash all sorts of inhumanity upon his neighbour in the quest for the “end” his ego desires.
At the end of the day we all have 23 pairs of chromosomes. I'm not convinced there are any significant distinctions after that point. Certainly no distinctions worth killing and dying for.
I don't have words or an argument of my own, just these words that I took off amazon.com which reflect how I feel about any drama.
The book is apparently by Corrie Ten Boom and called 'The Hiding Place':
'Corrie Ten Boom stood naked with her older sister Betsie, watching a concentration camp matron beating a prisoner.”Oh, the poor woman,” Corrie cried.”Yes. May God forgive her,” Betsie replied. And, once again, Corrie realized that it was for the souls of the brutal Nazi guards that her sister prayed.'
All sides appear to me to be filled with fear which they often try to disguise as hate.
- Michaela
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