中东：你会怎么做？
没有使约中东编写新的朋友。 不管你说，有些人会得到生气。 所以说诱惑是什么。
但我看完联合国（金石）有关加沙的报告，我不想说什么。
我爱的是联合国的理想。 我曾探访，并在其纽约总部的帮助下，和内部安全理事会会议厅的地位-这么多的国际关注的焦点不再比我还活着-对我是一个奇妙的经历。 我还认为大部分人谁的工作和联合国志愿人员热情，理想主义和伟大的人民。
但我认为联合国是弱，偏见，反犹太主义和抹黑当谈到中东。
你知道这个犹太国家比威尔士小，有一个人口不及大伦敦？ 你知道它是由许多100倍以上的陆地面积约50倍多的人的阿拉伯邻国包围？ 而你知道，这些强大的几个阿拉伯邻国宣布对以色列的战争就其存在的第一个早晨，仅仅是因为他们没有的-通常是仍然不-想一个犹太人的国家应该允许存在？
伟大的神话，是中东冲突的土地。 当然，这真的是意识形态和权力。
以色列的土地已自圣经时代犹太区（我指的旧约圣经，几千年前）。 这是人烟稀少的过去数百年多，直至进入该地区第一个大规模，1880年至1920年移民。 这些移民是犹太人逃离俄罗斯和东欧的大屠杀，而土地是他们的希望的绿洲。 作为回报，他们大多是注入了一口干舌燥景观生活。 他们的国家建设成为该地区一个主要的基础设施，从尘土飞扬的沙漠。 他们建立的几乎没有任何事情变得越来越强的经济。
更多犹太人移居未来二十年来，许多人是为躲避纳粹在30年代上升。 他们建造的基础设施和经济。 他们重建耶路撒冷。 他们在自己的社区再投资，使他们坚强，所有的时间自我要求自决和自治。
现代以色列正式成立作为一个国家-由联合国，具有讽刺意味的-在1948年。 这是一个地方，从大屠杀难民可以去开始新的生活。 人们常常指责却在大屠杀情绪，但为什么不情绪？ 这是相关的是，现代以色列的创建者很多，不只是德国和纳粹，而且谁被视为可怕的人，拒绝的是，他们在战后许多国家的庇护。 这是病人和可耻的人谁失去了他们的家人和家园，所有的物质财富，都留给了死去，在挂过的国家海岸-包括英国-这不会让他们进来船腐
以色列是他们的避难所。 犹太人同意联合国决议的条款，给他们一个家-然后，立即，他们侵略和伊拉克，叙利亚和其他攻击。
这是在这种背景下，以色列已经被动和主动维护对侵略者对61年本身。
通过其边界向外扩展，敌方火箭击退再也不能达到人口稠密的城市。 这在我看来，像一个明智的想法。 这是一个当然不完善的解决方案，但它拯救更多人的生命远远超过它的成本。 你会怎样做，如果有人要你死谁曾在你的房子，旨在火箭？ 推火箭回到他们的距离是多大的威胁减少可能是最和平的办法在这种情况下可用。
以“墙类似的”。 当然，它的不方便和人（犹太人和阿拉伯人）羞辱停止在检查站， 并大大降低了自杀式炸弹袭击，挽救无数人的生命。 这不是完美的，但是什么？ 你会怎样做，如果人在您附近炸毁自己呢？
我不是把以色列的宗教情况。 我们每个人都有自己的上帝或神，其中一些似乎很同意。 这不是我相关的许多犹太人视为自己的精神家园，或乐土以色列。 重要的是历史的真实-重要的是，这些人克服了可怕的障碍，建设美好的事物，没有人的恐惧和仇恨应该剥夺他们的另一个家。
伊朗总统艾哈迈迪内贾德威胁第二大屠杀，不是因为他想了一些额外平方英里的土地，而是因为他不希望有一个犹太人家庭，95％的伊斯兰地区。
人们喜欢说：“哦，一切都非常复杂”。 人们喜欢说：“哦，双方有每个故事”。 这些是不必认为公正懒惰的方法。
请问你的故事？
这些都不是复杂的问题，一旦你意识到3狐狸和对什么做晚餐鸡投票是没有民主。 联合国的报告背叛的信任，一些人仍然在联合国的，因为戈德斯通故意曲解和玩世不恭事件平息暴力多数。
还有另一个因素太多。 我认为这是迄今为止境外的理解是，我们大多数人根本不相信母亲可以用作人体盾牌让自己的孩子我们的境界。 甚至当我看到一所学校的屋顶，哈马斯发射火箭录像-知道，任何报复将杀死里面的孩子玩耍，因此投下更大厉害侵略者以色列-它似乎仍有点不真实我。 它只是不能。 它不能。 但它是。 它是。
孩子们的生存，这种滥用的未来和可能有一天掌握在自己手中，我们的未来。 什么希望又是什么？ 联合国开办的学校最近在加沙的哈马斯问是否能够确定教标准课程，包括有关第二次世界大战和纳粹大屠杀的一些历史教训。 当然，哈马斯积极拒绝该权限。
如果世界上还有没有联合国的要求恐怖分子认为这是非常确定，在历史课教学？
看到有一些儿童如何成长在联合国资助的在加沙设施挑衅一瞥视频下面。
以色列当然不是完美的。 任何人和任何国家。 但我想告诉你一件事-他们远远比我克制都在他们的鞋子。 如果你打人我关心的，我不是在计算什么是有分寸的反应感兴趣。 我会冲你回到我的努力可以，当你站起来，我会冲你，就更难了。 我知道这不是一个理想的办法是-我们都可能是禅师-但如果你的父母被杀害纳粹死亡集中营和您的孩子被一个自杀炸弹袭击，最重要的是有分寸的反应？ 当你失去了一切，再从一无所有重建，然后让充满仇恨的人试图利用了这一切又是什么到底是相称的反应？
你会怎么做？ 这不是很好的考虑，但它是唯一的方法来使其成为现实。 而这唯一的方法集体寻找解决办法。
我建议阅读本章 （可免费从没有在我的名字 ）。
所有的孩子们应该得到比这更好的：
81评论
精辟地说，克里斯-不知道这是你行原本（“这些都不是复杂的问题，一旦你意识到3狐狸和对什么做晚餐鸡投票是没有民主。”），但如果是，请恕我直言知道，这是一个线，可以改变世界吧！
做得很好，谢谢你。
你是一个美丽的人。
伟大的分析克里斯。 我很好奇你承担这一切，如果你看它从阿拉伯方面考虑到多个感性的立场和可能是什么积极的意向，可能会落后于他们的行动。
此外，您blogentry提供足够的洞察力和想法，但不回答你原来的问题，“你会怎么办？”。
感谢迈克尔和朱莉！
@达米安-我会怎么做？ 也许我写这一切的方式，得到了在某一群人的思想流，因为在一起我想我们会找到比任何一个单独解决方案快。 持久的变化发生时，我们成为最好的催化剂，激励和挑衅，相互需求的变化。
当我在约旦河西岸是两年前，我是用球员夫妇有一些深层次的恍惚鉴定。 我的感觉当然这是一件好事，有真诚的人。 世界上少有人打算做不好，甚至更少的打算是坏的。 不过，我认为世界上很多人被误导和误导强大的，有时自己感兴趣的领导人。 金融层面，这是最简单的证明，因为它已经反复证明，没有在该地区的人民有理由挨饿或无家可归。 这项援助是去那里是巨大的。 然而，许多事情不是用在武器和恐怖分子的训练是在刑事恐怖主义领导人的银行账户囤积。 因为它是有用的他们保持人民贫困和饥饿。
任何一个领导者为什么要这样对待他们的人民？ 我不知道，当然，但它让我想起了一点时，我曾与杨格女男爵茶。 我在竞选中的法律改变为同性恋人带来平等的，她是反对改革。 杨格女男爵是一个非常好的人。 她对我很亲切。 但她根本想，如果我得到我的方式，世界将在手推车去地狱。 这里的关键位：她知道她的合乎逻辑的论点是有缺陷的-她回避的问题和周围跳舞漂亮。 当我破门她时，她笑着给我更多的茶。 我们喝了很多茶叶。 但我仍然相信她是真诚，因为她相信如此强烈，作为一个好基督徒，她是走上正途。 简单地说：她知道她是对的，无论什么。
这个前提就是通过集中时会发生什么太接近你“知道”是真实的耻辱。 如果是在西藏，达尔富尔和世界其他地区的联合国？ 这从联合国观察家伙比我更把它能够： 禁止联合国讲话：人权噩梦 。 这是一个精彩的视频，我建议看的。
这是一个设于article.It很bias.There双方的硬币。 我很同情以色列然而，有一个其他的故事，在以色列承诺自成立以来，在这片土地上的盟友，不久后结束第二湿重的罪行表示。
我认为这只不过是您或写有一整个故事公平。
事情的真相是，如果有人对美国的援助巨大每年不，以色列将不会exist.The美国未来看起来非常光亮，并在所有的概率在美国的外交政策已经changing.If我是一个以色列我会认真地反思自己的态度和做法。 以色列的经验，知识和技术，以做得更好。我知道这是很难对付它的邻国，但如果有一个编辑Y中可以成功地做到这一点，并有一个和平相处，这不是联合国或美国它是以色列自己。
克里斯优秀的文章，写得很好，大胆。 我同意这个，特别是通过：
人们喜欢说：“哦，一切都非常复杂”。 人们喜欢说：“哦，双方有每个故事”。 这些是不必认为公正懒惰的方法。
对克里斯专- “讲片面，注意数字[2008]
*美国对以色列的援助（人口750万美元） - aprox的二四零零零零零零零零美元
*美国援助加沙（人口40万美元） - aprox的一十一点〇 〇 〇亿美元
为了肖恩康威
试试你，你又错了。
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/usaid.html
我没有看到任何人以作为一个国家存在，如果另外一个人已经为此付出代价的存在没有任何理由。 要进一步有种族灭绝通过了关于20世纪的一天，在非洲，没有人给出了老鼠的屁股对it.Is这是因为美国没有在非洲间质（至今）？ 可让在这里得到真正的事实（如悲伤，因为它是）以色列国存在于美国的乐趣。
我前面的发言，如果我是以色列的，我会重新考虑我的策略持有truth.Things正在发生变化，最终美国将放弃aid.I现在知道声音不可能相信它，但是这样做共产主义的终结某种十年较早。
该网站证实了肖恩说：每天$ 700万是aprox的每年$ 2.4b。 而美国提供了数十亿美元，非洲每年太，并已久的时间内完成。
你说得对，这是一个煽动性的话题。
有时很难谈论它，因为有这么多（双方），谁坚持，如果你不支持一侧，那么你必须支持方乙（反之亦然）。 不言而喻，但是，党派偏见不是一项义务。
此外，还有人简单地坚持认为，谁如果不支持政府，那么你反对的人的名义行事。 应该十分明显，任何一个现代国家或地区的行动，政府可能有点彻底偶尔的选民代表性。
可悲的是，没有什么时段给那些谁不支持，而并不在'情绪很好的主意有关各方'。
监禁，残害，纵火，爆炸，伤害和谋杀的罪行。 在种族或行为人的信条是无关性。 不，真的。 这是完全不相干。
罪犯应当作出答复他们的罪行。 高喊：“他打我先，先生！”或什至“，但他正准备打我！”不应该允许洗借口。
没有对沙利特，用推土机推倒了房屋继续监禁的借口，哈马斯的火箭弹发射到平民的领土，对平民开枪，炸弹在迪斯科舞厅，合法性令人怀疑的墙壁，等等，等等。 所有这一切在最终重要的是有多少人会一直活在今天或步行肉眼谁现在已经永久致残或作为犯罪行为的后果杀害。 以及有多少将享有更好的生活，如果他们不是一直在惶恐之中。
就个人而言，我认为作为一个犹太国家的国家为芬兰的一个国家或一个国家斯洛伐克等国的国家，如果我们要接受国家的存在在一定程度上，而且在一定条件下，这些国家可以给予自己太多的理由民族国家（或政体），则似乎合情合理，所有人民不容置疑地接受我们的国家，如果能够证明在自己的领土获得多数公民投票自决可能被授予国家的政体，他们可以提供答案，并符合一定的普遍标准在建立和运行的政体。
除二战后'冻结国家边界'，它可能是太晚了，重新认识到作为一个欧洲国家的犹太人和以色列创造一个某处在欧洲地区传统上由德裔犹太人，这是一种耻辱，而居住，我觉得。 欧洲领导人当时-斯大林最重要的是-快乐地洗了欧洲'的手中，出口到中东的犹太人问题'。
因此，地中海东部，是当时。 任何和平解决方案所带来的和平手段是好的，但我并不完全相信这两个国家的解决方案可以工作，特别是考虑到行政边界的性质。 所以...我们又怎能保证犹太人的民族自决权（即民族国家或政体）和巴勒斯坦民族？ 也许联邦单线双身份（以色列-犹太民族国家/巴勒斯坦-巴勒斯坦民族国家）和不同种族混合选区，每个联邦和自我程度自治一个半独立的耶路撒冷，基本上不在国家的解决方案共同的框架内举行的其他联邦选区可能是一个更进步的解决方案。
还有，当然，总有一些人认为，谁巴勒斯坦人不是一个国家，他们只是约旦人和不能被认为是在同以色列的犹太人的本体论层面的人民。 很不幸，这得到的回答“什么是民族？棘手的根”（甚至“当是一个国家？” -见沃克康纳），这不是一个问题，很可能会在短期内答复。 （见：保加利亚/马其顿和罗马尼亚/摩尔多瓦和俄罗斯/乌克兰等）
即使这样，事实上是与美国进行援助将不会有问题，因为他们都不会存在。
伟大的文章克里斯。 我不充分了解的情况，在以色列提供一个受过教育的评论，但你刺激了了解更我。
我认为这是令人钦佩的，已使这个知道有些人会不同意自己的方式在那里，我估计你为他们乐意这样做，因为最终它让人们去思考...，希望为自己的想法。
非常好，通过操纵情绪的言论，克里斯。 我几乎所有的下跌拍手陷阱。 但我认为你真的要在你的论点是错误当你如此雄辩地证明奔放的暴力行为，而不是对侵略者的适当反应。
另外，我不知道为什么，如果您认为宗教和“精神家园”的观点是无关紧要的，你举出的排名第一。 这毕竟是一认为，定居者使用证明自己对巴勒斯坦土地的非法占领，主要的理由。 我怀疑你做了什么（自觉或其他方式），构造了一系列呼吁的感情来支持你的论点。
是啊。 伟大的想法。
这就是了，在这种情况首先混乱的地方。 阿炸弹率直种植一堆人亡。 我的意思是，当然，谁奠定的恐怖分子炸弹杀死英国军队则有馀的。 飞行家机构在小烧位，在刚刚抗击纳粹压迫者的战争英国。 现在，这些恐怖分子是什么叫什么名字？ 在利库德集团的，没错。 非常有效的恐怖分子，他们是。 第二年，他们屠杀了107手无寸铁的阿拉伯平民，包括妇女和儿童在以前平静的小半德尔亚辛农村。
嗯，让你觉得：难怪阿拉伯人是犹太人的恐惧，没有它，如果这就是他们愿意做..？
但现在我就会停止。 你看，克里斯，不断上诉，就这一个情绪是不好的做法。 必须有一个答案这个地方-但它不是在您的博客。
不，这是肯定的。
这比你的喜欢和我的头脑冷静之一。 人谁，希望不要只挑起愤怒的恶感，挖掘和巩固甚至更多。 是啊，一个明智的头一个比我有我的肩膀上。 和你有你的。
和平。
马特。
非常耐人寻味-感谢克里斯。
说得好，克里斯。 感谢这一点。
该视频使我哭泣，但是我宁愿哭不是被视而不见。
感谢您开启我的眼睛一湿，即使你在这个过程中他们的一些事情。
（“这些都不是复杂的问题，一旦你意识到3狐狸和对什么做晚餐鸡投票是没有民主。”）
这是问题的核心，无论是狐狸，鸡也相信他们有在他们的一边，不可能很快达成协议。 我会怎么做？
我想寻找一种方式，以阻止他们相互作用的身体，而他们冷静下来。 这可能需要一段时间。
狐狸就必须从攻击的鸡，鸡就必须采取外农家庭院的土地和资源停止停止。 问题是找到一种动物，能够和愿意向警方边境。 一些大型和素食，我认为大象可以做这项工作。
我想联合国维和部队是在现实世界中的大象，也许并不理想，但我们最好的了。
为大象的作用没有其他的建议
“...在飞行烧伤位小家机构...”哇，马特，哇！
是的，这是一个理由，仇恨犹太人，因为我们的恐怖分子，远远超过你的有效的恐怖分子和恐怖分子，而爱尔兰了200年来没有得到他们想要的，却花了2年的犹太人得到一国的一座丰碑对犹太人和人文精神无处不在，所有的时间！
如何必须燃烧，马特！ 噢！ 是！ 犹太人做暴力，好吧！
“三狐狸和一个什么做晚餐鸡投票是没有民主的...。 戈德斯通故意曲解和玩世不恭事件平息暴力多数。“
完美。 谢谢您。
这是很好的克里斯说。
艾伦升，你误解了一些基本原则。
你的想法，欧洲犹太人问题'是'出口到中东'完全忽视了化妆以色列人口，其中包括来自中东国家和非洲的犹太人数百万人。 你强调，要建在您的情况，对德裔俯瞰裔犹太人和Mizrahim。 您还忽略了犹太人谁不是一个'欧洲国家'，但中东起源1人，可以追溯到几千年。
你说的'有多少人会一直活在今天或步行肉眼谁现在已经永久致残或谋杀'，但你批评'墙'是大大减少了在以色列的自杀爆炸的。http://www。 mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism- + +至+障碍和平/巴勒斯坦+恐怖自2000 + /自杀+和+其它+轰炸+ +在+攻击以色列+ Since.htm什么是您的选择'墙'如果你不希望出现这种情况？ 以色列必须面对现实，作出艰难的决定，也不能躲在一个犹太国家奇怪的概念，在任何地方，或对'一个单一的联邦国家'的梦，欧洲（不断幸福忽略宣布的巴勒斯坦人的目标摧毁这个犹太国家和人民的）。
军事行动是永远是“犯罪”？ 请问你描述盟军谁打的“希特勒的罪犯应作出答复他们的罪行”？ 当然不是，它有时是合理和必要的。 在历史上很少更比在与以色列的情况（而且很少有没有进行更多的人道）。
马特，你的利库德集团和德尔亚辛误导到选择性引用，以及你对阿拉伯恐怖主义十年有效excusal，证实的确是比你更聪明，需要负责人。
同样，以及克里斯说。
尼克，你认为联合国是“大象”？
很难知道如何应对，如果你认为。 我建议你看视频克里斯张贴更高了，而不是一个婴儿，但联合国观察一，解释了为什么联合国是正确的“鸡不可信”。
正如我所说的在Facebook ...
我不会形容，没有犹太恐怖主义或单方面宣布成立国家提到了以色列建国，就像我不会遗漏阿拉伯恐怖主义或助理高级专员反对两个国家的解决方案。 我不会形容该地区的“人口稀少作为占领模糊的理由”时，大约有100万阿拉伯人从那里他们的家人居住了几个世纪流离失所。
但最重要的，我不会弯腰，要求联合国反犹太人只是因为它不符合我对以色列应该如何对待的看法。 这既是反犹太主义成为以色列的国防政策至关重要，因为它是种族主义的是奥巴马的医疗改革的关键。
干得好，克里斯，谢谢！
阿拉伯人甚至不关心或帮助自己的人民，包括“巴勒斯坦人”说：“这可以很容易地在1948年吸收原65.00万巴勒斯坦难民21阿拉伯国家，但他拒绝这样做，尽管他们的总土地面积是700倍，大于以色列所拥有。 相比之下，新国家的犹太人人口只有60万，但以色列愿意吸收一些820,000欧洲犹太难民。“由兰德尔报价。 不知道这些数字是正确的。 此外，甚至没有提到的近100万犹太人在1948年从谁被赶出家园由阿拉伯国家的阿拉伯人因被剥夺了一切，谁受到欢迎回家以色列难民。 阿拉伯人和他们的亲信只是延续和使用“巴勒斯坦”问题丑化，deligitimize，企图摧毁以色列。 另一个例子：我的表弟，以色列曾建立了一支高素质的阿拉伯人在加沙纺织工厂。 巴解组织（这是在哈马斯）的威胁和攻击，直到工厂被迫关闭的阿拉伯工人和管理。 巴解组织不希望任何经济进展，可能得益于自己的人民。 他们希望'巴勒斯坦人“仍然是经济废人反以色列的宣传目的。 他们唯一的目的是摧毁以色列。
@杜奇，谢谢。 为平衡这或许还值得一提的是，伊拉克，埃及和利比亚等阿拉伯国家的暴力驱逐80万犹太人在1948年至1950年之间的“报复联合国以色列建国”。 我还没有看到任何令人信服的证据表明，以色列驱逐阿拉伯人以同样的方式，但我同意一些阿拉伯人流离失所，许多人认为他们别无选择，只能离开。 那一定是很可怕的和双方的创伤。
仍然有超过1亿美元在以色列生活的以色列阿拉伯人，他们选择居住，并成为社会的一部分存在。 他们没有与犹太人享有平等的权利，但是他们有更多的权利，他们会比在周边阿拉伯国家的任何。 有以色列议会（民主Parliamment）阿拉伯成员国。 我认为甚至可以做得更多。
一个关键的一点是我。 以色列-在当时贫穷的国家-从大屠杀提供了一个家所有来自邻近的阿拉伯国家的犹太难民，以及所有的犹太难民。 套用一句话，他们采取的悲歌，并使其更好。 他们从字面上重建耶路撒冷。 与此相反，丰富的阿拉伯国家拒绝给予一个家庭从以色列的阿拉伯难民，使他们转而成为他们的事业上镜的受害者。 这我厌恶的，坦率地说。 与对数千亿美元的综合生产总值阿拉伯国家可以很容易地拿出更多帮助阿拉伯人民，但它不适合他们。 这是我们大多数人很难理解的一部分，但证据确凿。
唯一的抱怨，我在这方面有文章是不存在的犹太难民由Mizrahim被迫离开所造成的状况只字不提。 当然，以色列能够吸收这些难民，但是他们的苦难往往被忽视和/或忽略。 此外，人们似乎可以方便地忘记，一直在土地上的犹太人，我丈夫的家庭中。 这可能是很多比历史上任何其他问题较小，但你不能否认他们的存在。
总之，一个很好的文章中，我佩服你的勇气！ 但是，唉，我没有向我们面临的问题的解决方案。 我一直在北爱尔兰，尽管'和平'，我们的街头战争仍然十分有效。 或许是自我毁灭只是在我们的本性...
安息日沙洛姆和沙娜托娃！
写得很好，你们勇敢的克里斯，谢谢！
您是犹太复国主义操纵联合国巴舍。 我敢打赌，你从来没有到过联合国从来没有到过安全厅和公正吸人谎言与金钱。
什么钱？ £ 50怎么样？
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=1434897&id=720452384
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=1434890&id=720452384
你可以让你的支票支付给犹太复国主义联盟！
我觉得这很真实张贴在我的心里。 无处远远超过在你对联合国的梦想从一个令人钦佩的解剖下降到道德破产的烂摊子，其mammothly谴责以色列过度给出了解决，其中包括世界的每一个后门真正的人权者和暴君通行证大陆。 这是您的联合国观察视频说明这么好，恕我直言，是因为全世界都应该注意，因为以色列正在为有光泽的闪亮分散，而忽略了真正的联合国人权行为在其他地方使用。 为什么是以色列一个使用？ 最简单的答案是反主义，是这是经常发生的情况。 同样，我们正在对我们的无比巨大的规模，而且只会变得更强大的力量。 那么你知道，我们不希望世界各地的犹太人到我们？！ 也有另一种元素，这是懒惰的道德等同，不看恐怖分歧一方和自我保护他人，因为这需要一些时间来学习，但大多数人并不关心不够。 任何正常的人都会清楚地理解为所谓的墙的原因，推动回火箭如果它是在前线，或有任何同情的心？ 死亡是我们的选择。 我们宁愿生活和比死于火箭弹和自杀炸弹的谴责。 在纳粹死亡的时间，我们数以百万计，这时候我们不希望死，对不起。 有多少向以色列发射了火箭，从术前铸造铅反应？ 这是12,000。 我们所有在座的人知道谁死，所以也许我们的观点是有别于谁在理论上说。 当然，我们反击，也许太硬，我不知道，但正如你说的是什么憎恨提出的选择吗？ 我从来没有听到的建议只是想。 因此，许多人不知道，这是一个耻辱。
Yasher Koach。
由于克里斯，我希望你得到你的钱！
我必须说，我仍然不同意与你有关“反犹太人主义的联合国”，我不认为它有助于解雇任何人，因为这是偏见的结果戈德斯通的严重结果。 炮击的清真寺祈祷时被发现是一对以色列国防军蓄意政策。 如果以色列不希望被平等对待恐怖分子需要停止为恐怖分子的行为相同。
杜奇，清真寺不再是禁地，恐怖分子股票与弹药和射击他们的弹药他们。
我点点头，以你的知识，并服从你的权力。
我的朋友杜奇，你的行为和意图混淆。 两名男子能走的道路，如果一个打算杀死一人，其他保存人，其实这是不同的路径。
为了你谁批评以色列：
请想象的情况下，我们所处的请我求求你这，如果火箭的目标是你的房子在这个时候，告诉我这是什么愿与这种恐惧生存的一个恨你的信条觉得你的敌人？ 一名自杀袭击者可以杀死任何警告，或者更糟糕的孩子，你可能永远不会从幼儿园回家。 在以色列所有知道没有父母，父母无子女家庭的儿童。 我们以我们在以色列国防军反过来你批评射击，当初哈马斯邪恶火来自学校，医院火箭我们和清真寺。 他们这样做的，像这样的人在想你是对我们不好的想法，但我讨厌它，你是如此糟糕通知你认为你比我们更好。
@阿里阿德涅，当你在祈祷，杀害无辜者，无论是挑衅的反应，你变得不超过恐怖分子自己。 我们作为文明的人不应该纵容任何政府，这样做的。
@拉比三，联合国的报告说，这是以色列国防军的意图杀死正是像他们那样，并列出了明确的意图其他情况的人。 引用从其中一个停止战争的旗帜游行我在爱丁堡几年前是，如果你原谅的语言：“和平轰炸”就像他妈的的童贞。
克里斯谢谢你，这是很好的阅读。
我的父母住在斯德洛特，对于那些谁不知道这是一个领域，经历了从哈马斯每日火箭轰炸。 我的父母看了斯德洛特当地的孩子们通过在去学校的路线，我们都知道他们能不能从火箭总是每天都来保护。 哈马斯的目标是儿童。 人民演员铅谁谴责行动，我们的反应后，1.2万枚火箭弹落在我们的东西，请告诉我。 你在哪里当我们的子女被解雇呢？ 联合国是在哪里呢？
我感谢钆，在英国的一些主张是正确的东西了。
没有战争多于加沙战争历史合理的。 如果你是在这里，你会知道。
尼斯将在爱丁堡此种事情的理论，您可以游行没有恐惧。
我住在伦敦，在那里有很多人曾经相似。
天真是惊人的。
什穆埃尔，为表达对我的反应几点许多感谢。 这是令人耳目一新，因为这在讨论一个问题，例如能够参与同由情绪的载货谩骂约束人进行商讨。
首先，如果我可以，一个简短的一旁，诺亚：请你明白，诺亚，即国家是神话的象征和建造-英雄的神话，神话的黄金时期，是受害者的痛苦和，命运的舱单等你举一个神话传说-国家殉难-特别是有效地部署，以加强以色列的犹太人国家认同因为有一个巨大的，再三讨论数千年之久的不公正记录犹太人苦难史（巴比伦capitivity，在埃及，罗马殖民化，在欧洲，欧洲中世纪的大屠杀奴役反在19世纪犹太人的运动，大规模屠杀犹太人的苏联和第三帝国等）。 然而，自1948年以来，巴勒斯坦人（当时，一个非常年轻的国家）已部署相同的神话，以建立自己的国家，所以，今天，以色列的反平民的军事反应刑事巴勒斯坦炸弹和火箭弹袭击将实现（不论其理由的'不再是受害者的条款'）是加强巴勒斯坦国殉难的神话，使巴勒斯坦民族神话强大。 令人遗憾的是，这将赋予巴勒斯坦交战。 针对平民的军事行动，而不是延长缩短了和平的道路。 （当然，不是每个人都真正希望和平，但它是不错的认为，我们都做）。
此外，您写“懒惰的道德等同，不看恐怖分歧一方和自我保卫他人。”也许民用谋杀只是一个平民谋杀，谁犯了罪，无论在什么已经？
回到什穆埃尔：
“艾伦升，你误解了一些基本原则。
谢谢您。 我在这里探讨的思想和学习，而不是不惜一切代价来证明我是对的。
“你的想法，欧洲犹太人问题'是'出口
“中东'完全忽视了化妆的
“以色列人口，其中包括数百万犹太人人
“来自中东国家和非洲。 你的
“强调，在努力构建你的情况，对德裔
“俯瞰裔犹太人和Mizrahim。
你是对的这两点理由。 然而，你说，现代以色列国也开始存在无论如何，即使德裔已愉快地进入普鲁士，奥地利和罗曼诺夫帝国集成？
“你还忽略了谁不是犹太人的由来
“一个欧洲国家'，而是中东的人，回去
“千年。
从技术上讲，是的。 但英国当时很多人显然来自丹麦南方（或西班牙北部，这取决于谁你读），匈牙利人是来自中亚，德国人是从黑海地区和最终我们从所有裂谷。 但我们普遍认为，英国的不列颠群岛，德国人和匈牙利人是来自德国和匈牙利。 因此，我认为这是公平的维护，会前和1948年地中海裔犹太人（尤其是）在中部欧洲德裔人来自欧洲，来自欧洲。
“你的'讲有多少人会被今天还活着或
“走，现在谁肉眼或终生残废
“谋杀'，但你批评'墙'的大幅
“减少了在以色列的自杀爆炸的。
我同意物理边界（在朝鲜非军事区，在塞浦路斯绿线，在贝尔法斯特和平线）是不幸的，但有时是必要的实际措施，以尽量减少两国之间的好斗各方的暴力。 My concern is less with the wall itself and more with the fact that it was not built along the legally designated demarcation line – a decision which looked like a crude land-grab. Also, unless I am mistaken, it was a unilateral, rather than a bilateral project. Is this correct?
> it cannot hide behind [...] a dream about 'a single federal
> state', (which blissfully ignores the endlessly-declared aims of
> the Palestinians to destroy the Jewish state and its people).
And what of all the many Palestinians who harbour no such wishes? And of all the many Israeli Jews who value peace more than their taxes subsidising civilian murder?
> Is military action always a “crime”?
对其他自愿战斗，没有。 对非自愿征召和平民，是的。 总是。 我想是的，无论如何。 Others will differ (though perhaps less so when their relatives are directly involved).
> Would you describe the Allies who fought Hitler as “criminals
> should be made to answer for their crimes”? Of course not, it is
> sometimes justified and necessary.
Huh?!! I hope you don't believe this, Shmuel. First of all, it is not the case that Churchill, Roosevelt & Stalin fought Hitler, Mussolini and Tojo. Closer to the truth is that certain people who had been brought up and educated to subscribe to the idea that they were of British ethno-nationality were ordered to and did fight and kill others who similarly subscribed to the idea that they were of German ethno-nationality. This is pretty insane by any measure. Secondly, when it comes to combat-willing fighters murdering combat-unwilling civilians such as in the Dresden firestorm, the atom bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki… in what terms might these not be considered crimes on a vast scale? Do you genuinely think it is acceptable for anyone but a paid, professional volunteer soldier to be involved in any armed conflict whatsoever?
There is no humane or justified killing of non-combatants by combatants. It is only in the interest of warmongers to persuade their respective electorates that there is. That is, after all, how they acquire and maintain power.
On the issue of Goldstone, please pay attention to what he was ordered to do by UN Resolution S-9/1. His job was unequivocally “to investigate all violations of international human rights law and international humanitarian law by the occupying Power, Israel, against the Palestinian people throughout the Occupied Palestinian Territory, particularly in the occupied Gaza Strip, due to the current aggression.”.
If you understand international law as Goldstone clearly does as a professor of the subject then you can see he was legally bound to be biased in his report even before he started his investigation!!!
Couldn't have put it better myself, Chris, which is why you've written this amazing blog post…and I haven't!! Constructive, clear and well considered comments such as yours are vital amidst the polluted trash coming out of most media outlets, which is ultimately a feeble cover for anti-semitism and anti-Zionism!
@Avi – I have great sympathy for your parents and for all of the victims of the bombings. But Sderat is not in Israel, is it? At least not the Israel of the UN mandate. It was built on the site of Najd, in Gaza, after that village was destroyed and occupied by Israeli forces during the Arab-Israel war in 1948. How did your parents end up living in an illegally occupied part of Gaza? When people decry the use of human shields, do they not also decry the Israeli use of illegal settlements, which amount to precisely the same thing?
It is wrong that the innocent people in Sderot should come under rocket attack from Hamas; but it was wrong that it should have been seized in the first place too.
@Shmuel – if you believe only people who live in Israel are entitle to an opinion about it then why do you not condemn this whole article? Or is it only if people don't live there *and* happen to disagree with you?
@Adam M – I can't see any bias there, I can only see focus. The resolution was focused on Israel as the occupying power. It's certainly no surprise that Goldstone didn't report on Palestinian atrocities, since he had no mandate to do so as you say. But that doesn't constitute bias.
I'm not Jewish or Israeli but I am a psychologist and this interests me. When it comes to people like Doogie, Alan, Matt and the like, I wonder how many times someone would have to knock them over before they stood up for themselves? Once? Ten times? Ten thousand times? Or would they just let themselves be abused?????
It's easy to say others shouldn't hit back but that's not real is it? How about making the theoretical practical, which I thought was the strength of this whole article. You guys need to associate with the idea that it isn't abstract for the people over there. The guy who said it's easy to march in Edinburgh/London is totally right.
Doogie:
If you don't know where Sderot is, then you really aren't nearly as up on the facts as you hold yourself out to be. Not only is Sderot within the '48 Armistice borders, it is also primarily populated with Jews who were forced to flee Morocco — their home for centuries or longer — where they were compelled to live under the dhimmi laws — a system of head taxes and other forms of discrimination.
As for the Occupied Territories, Israel offered their return shortly after the war in which they were won, in exchange for recognizing Israel's right to exist, but the idiot countries of the Arab League issued their famous “three nos” declaration from Khartoum. Instead, they pursued war through terror campaigns, targeting Jews living in places as far distant as Argentina and attempted to destabilize neighbouring Lebanon and Jordan. In the 1990s, they were offered the return of virually all of the occupied territories, and Arafat's response was to pump up the hostility via Palestinian media, mosques and schools and making public shows out of paying blood money to the surviving kith and kin of suicide terrorists. If the Palestinians and Arab citizens were truly as aggrieved as you believe, this incitement and bribery would not be necessary. In fact, a recent Pew poll found that 60%+ of Israel's Arab citzens would rather remain citizens of Israel than live under the PA or any other Arab government in the region. Life is, indeed difficult for Arab Israelis, but that's due to 40+ years of terror operations and not a state that practices systemic apartheid.
Excuse me Doogie but my parents don't want your smuggish sympathy and neither the lies you bolted on. Sderot (spell it right please) is on the green line 1km from Gaza, that is why the rockets reach there but the city is definitely NOT in Gaza (or West Bank before you get confused about that now). The Najd villagers you ignorantly talk of, approximately 620 people, were expelled in May 1948, that is before Israel was declared a state. Oh I forgot it doesn't matter about the facts. By the way Sderot is a city of thousands of people now and 35% are under 21. You are obviously a man who thinks he is clever but the misinformation you spread on these sites can incite hate and cost lives. Read a book please.
And now we're into personal invective and anger, what a waste of time that is.
Lynne, Avi – Najd was a village in Gaza, and Sderot is now a city in Gaza, however much you might want to pretend otherwise. Gaza stretches all the way up beyond Ashkelon. What you like to call Gaza now is actually the so-called Gaza strip, the part of Gaza not seized by Israel during the 1948 war. Such geographical and cultural revisionism dogs the history of the Middle East, to the detriment of honest debate.
I have no wish to incite any hate, and I don't think honestly held and respectfully expressed opinion should be criticised with that slur just because a disagreement is intense. I suspect that that attack, like the one which suggested that commenting from a distance is naive, are just the venting of frustration that others do not share your deep convictions. Well I don't.
Well articulated and factual Chris. I would only like to make a comment about the UN. My suspicions are that the UN generosity** in 1947 vote was that no one expected Israel to survive more than a year. I believe they knew, and were waiting for the Arab response, and possibly aided the Arabs in war preparations.
The Brits, for example, armed the Arabs, then stood aside while they massacred unarmed Jews. Just in case someone wants to bring it up, I don't care to hear anything abour Deir Yassin. If you read history, not the revised edition, Deir Yassin was a terrorist sanctuary in 48, and therefore made itself into a legitimate target. Then, as now, the terrorists burrowed in with the civilians, and then cried about civilian casualties. These same terrorists were massacring Jewish civilians.
**Generosity – the UN modified the original Israeli homeland which was intended to include all of what is now called Jordan.
Chris, your analysis is brilliant, your reasoning “True”. Of course you know that both Jew and Arab are cousins, heirs of Abraham. Yet, Israel had to fight and still has to fight to protect itself from being swallowed by her hostile cousins. Her Will to Fight and Endure is a hallmark of Israeli Resolve to survive…a very hard-won, hard-fought ongoing struggle.
Terrific piece Chris.
What amuses me about people like Doogie here -and there are a lot of them about-is that they seem to think that they have a monopoly on deciding when history starts and finishes.
'Such geographical and cultural revisionism dogs the history of the Middle East, to the detriment of honest debate.'
Indeed, so let's talk about the Jewish villages in the Gaza strip before 1948 which had to be abandoned when Egypt invaded during the War of Independence.
And why stop there? Shall we discuss the implications of the fact that there is an 8th century synagogue near the port of modern-day Gaza city? That, of course, is before Islam even existed.
If you want to play the historical card, Doogie, then there are better people to play it with than Israelis: we have long, long memories!
IsraeliNurse, I could not agree with you more.
I don't understand how so many are either unaware and/or choose to ignore the fact that Israel and the 'disputed territories' have always maintained a Jewish presence. As for Gaza, I always thought people knew it had been a Jewish stronghold. My husband's family, whom were once referred to as Palestinian Jews, talk of wonderful holidays spent in Gaza…before 1948 of course!
I read in the paper today that Ahmadinejad wants the world to stand against the 'Zionist Entity' because it's very existence is based on the myth of the Shoah. Therefore denying the suffering of those 6 million Jews among many other groups, but also denying the entire history of the Jews and their ties to the land. I could even go so far that he denies what it says in his own holy book but, perhaps he's not even worth discussing.
I suppose if you tell a lie enough times, people will start to believe it. Ignorance is not bliss…
Israelinurse – I completely agree the fault is on both sides. Your argument appears to be that two wrongs make a right. That is one of the fundamental problems with this debate. Just as Palestinian suicide bombers justify their unjustifiable acts of barbarism by pointing at unjustifiable Israeli barbarism, so unjustifiable Israeli revisionism is apparently justified by unjustifiable Arab revisionism.
When I point out one fault, you seem to hear me justifying another. I did not do so. I make no apologies for pointing out faults on the Israeli side on an article which was so completely one-sided in its support for the Israeli side.
There is clear evidence, collated by independent monitors and reported by the UN, that Israel has committed atrocities against the Palestinian people. There is also clear evidence, collated by independent monitors and reported widely by governments all over the world, that Hamas and other Palestinian organisations have committed atrocities against the Israeli people.
If you are genuinely concerned to end this horror, the last thing you need to do is to pretend that one of these reports is due to “anti-semitism”. 事实并非如此。 It's factual.
@ Doogie – For the UN to single out the Jewish state for criticism and censure, while turning a blinded eye to genuine and undisputed human rights abuses in many other countries, including Zimbabwe, Darfur and Tibet, is, in my opinion, a symbolic invocation of prejudice against the Jewish people: an act of blatant and inexcusable antisemitism.
If you cannot see the problem, perhaps you are part of the problem.
The Goldstone report is a classic example of multi-layered spin. Most people think they are sophisticated enough to see through spin, and that's part of the spin. The most effective politicians are the ones that embed ideas using fuzzy and junko logic. By flattering our self-image, it's easy to make us think we think things. We even have the sense of having discovered these things as our own ideas. But that's like saying a child who completes a dot the dot puzzle is a creative artist; adults know that the picture was embedded in advance.
Consider a very basic – and therefore easy to unpack – example. As Adam M noted earlier, Goldstone was mandated “to investigate all violations of international human rights law and international humanitarian law by the occupying Power, Israel, against the Palestinian people throughout the Occupied Palestinian Territory, particularly in the occupied Gaza Strip, due to the current aggression”. That was his legal obligation. However, in the introduction to his report he gave a different account, claiming he was asked “to investigate all violations of international human rights law and international humanitarian law that might have been committed at any time in the context of the military operations that were conducted in Gaza”. Not all the words are different, but the meaning is entirely different.
He did what he was asked to do, but his introduction constructs the false impression that he investigated the bigger picture and found most fault with Israel. The semantically dense phrase “Occupying Power” was also moved from the mandate to the report title – where it will feel to most people like it's a conclusion of the report.
All this is only one dot – not particularly meaningful in itself – but when combined with hundreds of other dots, strategically placed, it creates an ugly picture. It's the kind of picture that leads people to march through London – or Edinburgh – holding “we're all Hezbollah now” banners. It's the kind of picture that leads to people being marched to death camps. We should be better than that.
I can't speak for any commentators here but I can say that the people whom I have talked with about the Middle East, ( face to face I might add! ) seem to think that anti-semitism begins and ends with the Nazis and the Holocaust. They will make statements like; ” I go on anti-Nazi demos so I can't be anti-semitic”, or ” I have Jewish friends so how could I possibly be anti-semitic?” or, the classic ” I'm not anti-semitic, I'm just anti-zionist “. Perhaps the best one I've heard lately is that by calling Israel's critics 'anti-semitic' is the SAME as calling President Obama's critics racist. I find it thoroughly interesting that the first man to come to Obama's defence when he was called a liar by a member of congress was Jimmy Carter, say no more…
Anti-semitism has done and will continue to rear it's ugly head in many forms. It's been around for millennia and it certainly wasn't something created by the author of Meine Kampf. It can be as subtle as a piece published on CiF or something altogether larger like The Goldstone Report. Let's not forget this report was issued on behalf of the UNHRC, a council with members from countries with fantastic records on human rights; Saudi Arabia, Libya, Zimbabwe….
These countries also have many ideals in common when it comes to the Jews and Israel, there's no point in pretending that they don't.
I know Israel well, I have Israeli family and I also have Israeli Arab friends. Israel is not a perfect country, they make mistakes just like EVERY other nation. The difference with Israel is that they are constantly under attack, physically and verbally. To continually single out Israel for condemnation while a blind eye is turned towards the most severe human crises well, if there isn't anti-semitism in that, then I don't know what it is. If Cuba were firing rockets into the USA on a daily basis for 8+ years, well, do you think they would wait that long to respond? What would the USA deem to be a proportionate response?
I also wonder if all the armchair warriors who come out screaming 'stolen land' and 'occupation' every time Israel is mentioned in the press, do they do the same thing when the United States of America is mentioned? How about Australia? South Africa? Central and South America? Ireland? Why stop at boycotting produce from Israel and the 'illegal settlements'? Let's boycott American products too…
- Waiting for the time when Earth shall be as one!
嗯。 Lot of straw man arguments here. But the debate remains civil which is by far the most important thing. I have a side-question to everyone about the term “anti-semitic”. I have always understood it to be a term of ethnic prejudice – a term which describes the ideology of being anti-Jewish, anti-Judaic, anti-Jew. Rather abhorrent, I hope we all agree. (Indeed, I hope we all agree that it's as deeply unpleasant as being anti-Persian, anti-Arab, anti-Slavic, anti-Japanese or anything else). Can I ask if there is anyone here who understands it to mean “opposing the policies of the post-1948 Israeli state” ?
Because these really are two very different concepts and I for one think it's (always) important to distinguish between (for example) Russians and Bolsheviks, Germans and Nazis, Chinese and CPCers, Americans and PNACers etc.
If “anti-Semitic” does in fact also include the second thing, then I'll stand corrected and in good grace reconsider my position that militaristic policies which target civilians are criminal, regardless of which administration executes the policy. The last thing I want (genuinely) is to be justifiably accused of anti-semitism. But if it does not, please lets not go around saying things like “opposing policy in Tel Aviv is anti-Semitic” because that's clearly a bit daft and doesn't help.
I look forward to answers from anyone who has time to answer this side-question. 预先感谢。
To Alan ——>Your post was to demonstrate what a straw man argument is?
I have learnt a lot from reading this so thanks to all sides
Alan,
Your question can be answered with a simple test: have Jewish critics of Israel been accused of being anti-Semitic? The answer is decidedly yes, even Goldstone has been accused, though as an ardent Zionist and a respected jurrist the accusations against him are less mainstream than they are against others, such as Norman Finkelstein or Ilan Halevei, where they are almost unanimous in the mainstream. Just google “self-hating Jews” ans see what comes up.
Chris,
What does Israel's geographic size have to do with its responsibility to safeguard human rights, even only looking at the Israeli side did Cast Lead lead to more or less violent deaths, and what right does Israel have to be an ethnic state that officialy discriminates against people of certain demographic groups?
To Alan L,
If you're going to define the term 'anti-semitic' etymologically, then it is a prejudice against all Semitic peoples, not only the Jews. As I am sure you are well aware, the Jews have been singled out consistently for the most horrendous persecution, for reasons which are beyond the understanding of our simple brains so… in time the term has come to mean something more specific. It's highly probable that the term takes on a slightly different term to different people. Language evolves, what can you do about it?
I don't however believe that anyone would understand it to mean “opposing the policies of the post-1948 Israeli state” . I do however believe that there is more than a touch of anti-semitism ( if we take the understanding of the term to mean 'anti-Jew' ) in people opposing the sovereignty and very existence of an Israeli state.
As for ” militaristic policies which target civilians “, this is not something I would tolerate in any way, shape or form. Civilian casualties and death will always be an outcome of any war. If Israel are guilty of the intentional targeting of civilians then somebody should be held accountable. Just as heads should roll in Gaza for the continued targeting of civilians in Israel, in fact, the heads of Hamas should roll for how they treat their own people. But, I stand by Israel's right to defend herself and her citizens.
I was brought up in Northern Ireland. I know of many horrible events that involved the British army targeting civilians, most of these the general British public probably don't even know about. I've also had the misfortune to meet civilians who deliberately targeted soldiers in the most horrific ways, not to mention civilians who target civilians. It was a nasty situation but even I can see that sometimes the military had to act for the greater good. We still have a military presence here but I don't see the world up in arms about the 'occupation' here. Just to be clear, I am in no way comparing the trouble Israel faces to the situation that we have in Ireland!
All in all, I don't think all criticism of Israel stems from anti-semitism, it also comes from ignorance and misinformation. And yes, at times criticism is just ( I'm critical of Israel for the sheer volume of paperwork I have to fill out for my daughter's birth registration and passport…) but, no nation is perfect. I just think the world, and in particular, the UN, should shift their focus from Israel to the countries and people that are living in the most dire and most severe situations.
To young_activist,
Israel has the right to exist as a Jewish State just as Saudi Arabia has the right to exist as an Islamic State. Saudi Arabia and many other Islamic states officialy discriminate against people of certain demographic groups. Women generally have no rights at all in Saudi Arabia, Jews and Christians are expected to live in a state of 'dhimmitude' and if you're homosexual, well…I need say no more. I have Israeli Arab friends who love the freedom of living in Israel, they do not feel 'officially' discriminated against, in fact, they feel 'officially' happy. I also know of an Arab lady who was over the moon because not only is she allowed to drive in Israel, but also because she is allowed to work as a bus driver. The security situation means EVERYONE is suspicious, fairskinned Arab, darkskinned Jew alike.
@ Chris – You and others keep returning to the same point, I think, and I consider it moot. You keep referring to the treatment of Israel in comparison to the treatment of others – whether they be other countries guilty of abuses, or other organisations guilty of terrorist acts.
The existence of another entity carrying out acts as bad as, or worse than, the first, changes nothing with regard to the culpability of the first for any acts it has carried out.
You see the UN as anti-semitic because you consider Israel's actions to be less heinous than the actions of states which have not been censured by the UN. But think of it this way: if the UN tomorrow condemned Zimbabwean atrocities, Darfur slaughters and Tibet oppression, would that change anything in fact about the UN's view of Israel? I would suggest not. These are independent events.
As for your join the dots metaphor, I think anyone could find such dots to support any point of view. I think you find them because of your pre-existing opinion, not the other way around. And I think there is probably a corner of the internet where the precise same documents are revealing completely different dots to people on the opposite side of the argument to you, and they are feeling as vindicated as you are.
@Ruth – I'm fascinated by the Carter reference about Obama and your exhortation to “say no more”. I've already expressed the opinion that it is as much anti-semitic to be critical of Israeli defence policy as it is racist to be critical of Obama's health reforms. Can you make your argument against this more explicit for me? I don't follow it.
You also seem to be the most complete exponent of the theory that two wrongs make a right, and I'd like to comment on the final instance of this in your later comment. You say “Israel has the right to exist as a Jewish State just as Saudi Arabia has the right to exist as an Islamic State.” Then you go on list the horrors of discrimination in an Islamic state while justifying the lesser discrimination of the Jewish state. Genuinely for me this sounds like the man who boasts that he only beat his wife, while his neighbour murdered his. No matter what his neighbour did, he beat his wife.
Personally I think theocracy is a contemptible way to run people's lives, whatever god you claim to do the will of. Since there is no such thing as god, any state which bases any part of its law on what “god” says is ridiculous. Sadly, that covers the majority of states in the world to a greater or lesser degree.
Doogie, I salute your indefatigably.
On the other hand, repeating something does not make it so. Otherwise we'd all chant peace and be done. Nobody here has said that two wrongs make a right. In fact, nobody here who is standing up for Israel seems particularly bothered about being right. That is their strength. Right and wrong are how armchair activists judge complex situations from thousands of miles away; the people who are most directly affected by this tend to think about it on a different plane – one that is infinitely more practical and useful. Because this is about real people more than it is about pixels on the screen.
If the police in Edinburgh began arresting only black people who commit crimes – ignoring or downplaying the crimes of all other races – that would not only be inexcusable racism, it would universally be seen as inexcusable racism.
When the UN censures only Jewish leaders – ignoring or downplaying the crimes of all other races – that too is inexcusable racism.
And when the UN frames Jewish leaders for crimes they didn't commit – while still ignoring or downplaying the real crimes of all other races – that's a toxic evil.
Yes, I keep returning to the same point.
Because if you cannot get that, there's nothing more to be said.
Ah, more references to “armchair activists” as if everyone on the other side of the argument was typing from a command post in the West Bank rather than a couch in Windsor. You'll excuse me if I don't feel disabused by that. I happily acknowledge that I'm sitting in Edinburgh expressing an opinion, and I don't think my location impacts on its validity.
Of course I am over-simplifying the argument by characterising it as two wrongs making a right. Of course “wrong” and “right” are subjective, a point I have already made. But let's be honest here.
You talk about Israel “extending its boundaries outwards” while you describe how its Arab neighbours “invaded”. Perhaps you genuinely can't see the double standard in this, but I'd be surprised. They are descriptions of the same thing, one full of self-justification, the other full of condemnation. And you justify the one by the other. My shorthand for that is two wrongs making a right.
As for your claim that the UN “censures only Jewish leaders – ignoring or downplaying the crimes of all other races”, this is pretty shameful I think. The UN has censured Israel, which is a state, not a race (and not a religion either). Making that connection between state and race as if the two concepts were interchangeable is frighteningly dangerous. It's the same tactic as al-Qaeda uses to stir up hatred among Muslims when he talks about attacks on Islam. It is the language of fundamentalism.
Israel has contravened UN resolutions, and committed what amount to war crimes. Israel has been censured for this. The Jewish people have neither committed nor been censured for such actions. To suggest they have is dangerously inflammatory in my opinion. There are far too many stupid people in the world who will lap up that falsehood as easily as they lapped up “Muslims are terrorists”.
“[...] that connection between state and race as if the two concepts were interchangeable [...]”
I think it cannot be stressed enough that territorial-administrative entities (ie. states) and ethno-national entities (ie. nations) are not the same kind of thing.
The confusion comes in our fuzzy use of the word 'nation' in the English language to sometimes mean 'a political state' when this is actually not what it means. For instance we have the word 'international' which in fact conveys the sense of 'inter-state'. We also have multinational corporations – in fact they are multi-state corporations. Not least, we have a global political talking shop consistently referred to as the United Nations. It would more correctly described, amusingly enough, as the United States.
Jews and Israelis are not the same. We probably all know Jews who are not Israelis. And, as several thread participants indicated higher up, there are not a small number of Israelis who are not Jews.
亲爱的杜奇，
Firstly, I have NEVER justified Israeli discrimination whilst condemning Saudi discrimination. I am merely commenting on my own experiences in Israel as I have spent enough time there to be able to see for myself that by and large there is not an official policy of discrimination against different ethnic groups. In my experiences, EVERYONE is treated like a suspect but this is the environment that they have been forced to live in. Perhaps you should read my comment again and you will see that it is a response to another's commentator's question of 'what right does Israel have to exist as an ethnic state that officially discriminates against people of certain demographic groups?' By pointing out that Saudi Arabia is an ethnic state that officially discriminates against people of certain demographic groups does not in any way suggest that I justify the actions of Israel nor does it suggest that I believe that if the Saudi's can get away with it then the Israeli's should get away with it too. All my Israeli Arab friends live full and free lives, this is a fact. They also peacefully co-exist with Jews, Christians and many more. I'm sorry that if you think my divulging of this personal information means that I tolerate the discrimination of Arabs/Bedouins and other ethnic groups in other parts of Israel. This is my experience of life in Israel and maybe I have been blessed but it's still a valid part of Middle Eastern life that people should know about.
'You also seem to be the most complete exponent of the theory that two wrongs make a right'. 怎么会呢？ Because I was brought up surrounded by terrorism and military occupation? Because my childhood environment was 'tit for tat'? You could not be further from the truth.An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. Maybe because, in my experience, the British Army sometimes had to act against civilians for the greater good. All life is sacred, but if the saving of many civilian lives comes at the price of a few IRA or LVF members then yes, I am indeed the most complete exponent of the theory that two wrongs make a right. But this is not about Ireland, this is about Israel.
All of us 'armchair warriors' are never going to change the situation out there. We sit here crouched over our keyboards, each one of us convinced that 'I'm right and you're wrong'. At the end of the day, I'm not going to convince you or anyone else of what I know and what I've experienced, nor will you convince me. This kind of debate has it's place, but it's not going to change the world.
As for your question regarding Obama, in my opinion, accusing Israel's critics as anti-semitic is not the same as accusing Obama's critics as racist. I have made no reference to the IDF nor have I made reference to Obama's healthcare reforms. I am talking in general terms, if we're going to get specific then that's an entirely different thing as I don't believe all criticism of Israel is anti-semitic but I do believe a certain amount of criticism against Obama is definitely racially motivated. I have no argument here, just my lowly opinion. And you're fascinated by my Carter remark? Well, this isn't the forum for discussions on Jimmy Carter, I just happen to find him an interesting character.
Anyway, peace out from one armchair warrior to all the others. Goodnight.
@ Doogie
“Since there is no such thing as god”
I don't have proof of the existence of a divine power. Are you being provocative or do you have definitive proof?! I would love to know for sure myself…
[...] Bowen's wrong-headed interpretation, compare it with this eloquent analysis. Don't ask the Jews to offer the Palestinians a bunch of helium love-hearts, or [...]
Alan L
Jewish and Israeli are not the same thing. I'd say that a good percentage of people don't actually realise this fact. Perhaps there is more danger in this than people care to acknowledge.
But, when you have those who are in power of Iran referring to Israel as that 'Zionist Entity', you can't really blame people for becoming confused.
Maybe the spoken word and the power of the pen are the most dangerous weapons of all…
Ruthie, check out Rabbi Yossi Mizrachi at divineinformation.com, video or audio of Torah and Science.
On the subject of Israel, I am unashamedly supportive of Israel, who despite all the problems, has created a vibrant, inclusive state surrounded by some of the most repressive and backward countries in the history of the world.
Here is a book I've enjoyed reading from cover to cover, 'The Boats of Cherbourg'. The best parts were the stories of the individuals who assisted Israel in small ways which allowed Israel to get their missile boats out of Cherbourg to Haifi in time for the Yom Kippur war.
@ Ruth, I appreciate your responses, and I think we're probably more in agreement than we appear. I am happy to acknowledge that Israel has a lot going for it, just as you seem happy to acknowledge that it isn't perfect.
Ref the existence of god – of course one cannot prove a negative, but I say there is no such thing as god with the same assurance with which I say there is no invisible pink unicorn orbiting my desk. I can't prove that, and it would certainly explain why my black pens keep going missing, but I reasonably sure I'm right all the same. Peace out.
[...] by Chris Morris [...]
Jean,
Thank you for the suggestions, I will check them out. I too am supportive of Israel despite everything. I've met so many wonderful people out there, from all faiths and races. I just hope that some day that what I've experienced in the Middle East, will be the experience of every single human life out there.
@ Doogie, I like the idea of an invisible pink unicorn orbiting your desk. If you prove that there is one there , then perhaps you could send one my way
First time here – brilliant post; it expresses the same feelings I have, but in much better words than I ever could!
Chris Morris said he had been to the 'West Bank' area and I assume Israel too Chris? Alan, Doogie, you have visited too?
@Avi, No, I haven't. I hope that meets with your expectations.
但是，越来越糟。 I've never been to South Africa either, but I had the temerity in times gone by to express opinions about apartheid. I've never been to Egypt, but like a true armchair warrior I've banged on about human rights abuses there nonetheless.
I'm off now to plot a map of countries I'm fit to comment on – and to give myself a good slap for my past sins.
A defensive reply is not needed because I only inquired about a fact.
It is easy to imagine “Doogie” in the 30s, don't you think?
Irresponsible Doogie. Irresponsible!
You rely on biased media and think you know better than the people on the ground.
I myself do not know everything so say I don't, then I can learn more.
Quite a subject you've brought up, Chris. I'll only remark that I agree with you and ask if you've read The Case for Israel by Alan Dershowitz (ISBN-10: 0471679526; ISBN-13: 978-0471679523 ). It's excellent.
Caroline, drop the shrill personal invective, it doesn't help. I have never stated that I know better than others, nor that I know everything. Objectivity will not come from the media, nor from people “on the ground”, nor from me, nor from you, nor from anyone posting here.
I'll tell you what I think is “Irresponsible!” Caroline, and that is calling the UN anti-semitic because it has condemned acts of barbarity by the state of Israel. The more you discredit the only organisation in a position to steer a path towards peace, the further away you push peace.
Perhaps one difference between me and some others posting here is that I want this conflict to end in peace, while others want it to end in victory.
Oh Doogie, stop trying to be right. It's painful to read.
詹姆斯
(Not Jewish, not particularly a fan of Israel)
Avi, thank you for your question. The answer is no – but I would like to very much. One reason I am very curious to visit both Israel and the Palestinian territories is because – you and I never know! – it might even change my the way I think about the Middle East question.
I should point out I am open to having my mind changed by rational argument – though, as you can see from my thoughts above, I am fairly closed to having my mind changed by emotional argument.
Neither am I persuaded by the idea that “ends justify means” because I am afraid that such a philosophy only leads man to unleash all sorts of inhumanity upon his neighbour in the quest for the “end” his ego desires.
At the end of the day we all have 23 pairs of chromosomes. I'm not convinced there are any significant distinctions after that point. Certainly no distinctions worth killing and dying for.
I don't have words or an argument of my own, just these words that I took off amazon.com which reflect how I feel about any drama.
The book is apparently by Corrie Ten Boom and called 'The Hiding Place':
'Corrie Ten Boom stood naked with her older sister Betsie, watching a concentration camp matron beating a prisoner.”Oh, the poor woman,” Corrie cried.”Yes. May God forgive her,” Betsie replied. And, once again, Corrie realized that it was for the souls of the brutal Nazi guards that her sister prayed.'
All sides appear to me to be filled with fear which they often try to disguise as hate.
- Michaela
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